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97` 850 R manual swap, long crank intermittent spark/start Topic is solved

Help, Advice and DIY Tutorials on Volvo's extremely popular car line -- Volvo's 1990s "bread and butter" cars -- powered by the ubiquitous and durable Volvo inline 5-cylinder engine.

1992 - 1997 850, 850 R, 850 T5-R, 850 T5, 850 GLT
1997 - 2000 S70, S70 AWD
1997 - 2000 V70, V70 AWD
1997 - 2000 V70-XC
1997 - 2004 C70

gswede
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:44 am
Year and Model: 850 R 1997
Location: Norway

97` 850 R manual swap, long crank intermittent spark/start

Post by gswede »

So the 2nd autobox finally caved in, lost 1st, 2nd and made a racket in reverse.

PO had the tranny changed at 100k miles. Apparently due to moist in fluid, possibly from a small leak in radiator cooler.

I bought it at 120k miles, first thing i did was installing a proper oil cooler and flush the transmission. Followed up with drain and fill every 8 k miles.

At 150 k miles, it gave up. Time for M56 :-)



Spent most of January/February sourcing parts, or should I say, the local indy/private son of a Volvo dealer did.

Manual swap is apparently a forte of his and was a safe bet. Cheap too.

Never style M56 required new internal slave sylinder so new stuff bought included.

- R.Clutch

- Pressure plate

- Throw out bearing

- Internal slave sylinder

- Flywheel bolts

- RMS

- Short "fan" belt as the AC had been inoperable since 2002, many receipts from PO attempting fixing it. Figured no need for a belt spinning non working equipment.



Last weekend he performed the swap. Called me on monday that he had issues getting the car to start, he wanted to swap cam sensor and did this. He the proceded to start the car. Called me up and said all was good and I could come pick up the car. So I did.

Did a test run then and there, first thing I noticed was that it took 3-4 sec of crank time to start. Embarrassingly long time as the car always started immediatley before the swap, always instant start. Took a drive and was flabbergasted with the revitalization of the car and its new found manual driveability. Drove back, parked the car and mentioned the unusually long crank time. Started it back up there and then, same thing albeit maybe just 2-3 sec crank time this time. Old car, all good kinda mood.



Got in the car and drove off, back home i presented the missus with the "new" manual Volvo member of the household. She willingly jumped in, cranked it 3 sec - looked at me whilst cranking, not the good look. Car fired up and all was smiles, off she went. Came back happy as can be, job done i thought.



Next morning she drove off in "my car" the MK3 Focus ST. I wanted to keep the R with me a while longer, until everything checked out so to speak.

Got in, key in ignition, cranked and cranked and then cranked some more, no go. Hooked up a battery charger and grabbed me some coffee before cranking some more. Eventually it came to life. Let the car idle warm with lights and auxiliaries off, shut her down. Let sit 5-10min and attempt start, same as the day before 3-4 sec crank time and she came to life. Decided not to fault test to much now as it did start, albeit with longer than usual crank time, when warm.

Spent the rest of the day going over all or should I say most ground points, checking rotor and cap, sensory equipment contacts etc etc. Did not attempt to fire up until the mrs got back from work. All in all a good 8,5 hrs between second 3-4sec crank start earlier that morning.

Kids back from school, dinner ready, we ate, placed the kids with their ipads and into the yard we went.

Cranked 10 sec, no go, I unscrewed plug nr1, it was dry, connected plug to lead and lay at valve cover, she crank and there was no spark. So, dry plug and no spark, no fuel either. Damn. Took off center lead from distr cap going to coil and placed by strut tower, crank but no spark. Well, it did actually spark a few times several seconds into cranking but it was inconsistent. Checked/touched injectors for pulse, nothing.



Put everything back in its place, continued cranking and sure enough, it eventually fired up. Got most my tools in the back of the car in and went for a 30-40 mile drive locally. Not one time did it stall or buck, it ran perfectly. Did not stop car whilst on trip. Got home, stopped it. Started again with 2-4 sec crank time. Put the battery on charge, got me a cold one and trawled the web for no spark/no fuel condition. All lead me towards either cranksensor or camsensor. The guy doing the transmission swap had already swapped the cam sensor. I called him up and sure enough, he had plenty of known working sensors. Got in my other car and picked up 3 crank, 3 cam sensors and a known working coil. FYI, plugs are OEM new, same with leads, cap, rotor, TPS, ECT. I like doing preventative maintenance

Next morning it was the same deal, I knew cranking long enough, 40-120sec and it would eventually fire up, but before I got there, I started changing out sensors and coils. All with the same result. A shitload of cranking and eventually it fired up. So no luck swapping parts.

Called the local Volvo dealer, had them diagnose the car, no codes stored. They kept the car overnight and replicated my problem, cranking a minute or so before start but could not tell me what was wrong. they hinted toward camsensor, 500USD dealerprice. No thanks. Explained that I already tried several working ones when I gave them the car.



So, here I am, with my most reliable car, not so reliable anymore. Taking longer and longer to crank as engine cools down. Discussed cranksensor polarity with tranny guy but he dont think it got anything to do with that but has no other reasonable explanations.



Anyone that can point me in the right direction will be added to my Christmas card list. I`m lost for ideas.

M4.3 one pre cat O2 sensor only car.



- Auto ECU still in use.

- TCU removed

- No longer got cruise control, partially removed.

- PNP green and green wht lead connected

- No flashing arrows or other DTC

- Key in II position everything lights up, and stays lit up whilst cranking. I seem to remember all dash lights come on with key in II but not whilst cranking...

- No vac leaks

- New fuel pump and relay

- Have reset immobilizer, battery ground off, 10 minutes, reconnect, open/lock door with key 5 times.

- Cranks hard/fast

- New 74amp battery since yesterday

- I have tried with different ignition relay, same result.

- Say if crank sensor polarity is wrong, would the car fire at all?



From this morning, 19.03.16


This is from this morning, cranked 2 minutes or so, nothing.

Any tell tale tales from looking at the instrument cluster?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYekitcQ4lA


5 minutes later, had the mrs crank as I was playing around with the ignition relay wires. It fired right up. Not conclusive as this is how the car has behaved last week, lots and lots of cranking and suddenly, start. Problem is, once it starts for the day, it continues to fire unless it has 8-10 hrs rest between tries.
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abscate
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Re: 97` 850 R manual swap, long crank intermittent spark/start

Post by abscate »

Hallo!

Ignition wires?? They should be Bougicord brand. Aldo they must be routed just like OEM, it's known that the wires can interfere with cam sensor function if they are not placed " correctly"

Have you replaced the engine coolant temperature sensor? That's another thing to test. When it malfunctions, it will interfere with cold starting

When you get the long cranking, stop and try some starter fluid in the air cleaner. That will tell you if its a spark or fuel delivery problem.
Empty Nester
A Captain in a Sea of Estrogen
1999-V70-T5M56 2005-V70-M56 1999-S70 VW T4 BMW
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gswede
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:44 am
Year and Model: 850 R 1997
Location: Norway

Re: 97` 850 R manual swap, long crank intermittent spark/start

Post by gswede »

got 10 k miles on my new oem bugicord wires.. ECT is also new. All parts OEM.
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abscate
MVS Moderator
Posts: 22547
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:54 pm
Year and Model: 99T5 ,99S70,2005V70
Location: NYC, ALBANY NY
Has thanked: 376 times
Been thanked: 1177 times

Re: 97` 850 R manual swap, long crank intermittent spark/start

Post by abscate »

Are those wires routed away from the cam sensor? This is a known issue.
Empty Nester
A Captain in a Sea of Estrogen
1999-V70-T5M56 2005-V70-M56 1999-S70 VW T4 BMW
Link to Maintenance record thread
Link To Volvo Glossary
gswede
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:44 am
Year and Model: 850 R 1997
Location: Norway

Re: 97` 850 R manual swap, long crank intermittent spark/start

Post by gswede »

Yes, as far away as possible.
Also, the maf wire is as far away from the coil wire as can be.
gswede
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:44 am
Year and Model: 850 R 1997
Location: Norway

Re: 97` 850 R manual swap, long crank intermittent spark/start

Post by gswede »

The fuel relay pins are currently bridged, pumps runs good. New OEM pump also. So, it got fuel. Have not tested pressure but safe to say, if has a healthy spray coming out the schrader valve on fuel rail. Fuel damper is also newish and there`s no smell of fuel in the vac line to it.
gswede
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:44 am
Year and Model: 850 R 1997
Location: Norway

Re: 97` 850 R manual swap, long crank intermittent spark/start

Post by gswede »

I added an extra ground wire between the engine block and transmission the other day, thinking the 2 parts may have bad contact . No change
Also added an extra ground wire from valve cover and directly to battery ground. No change
gswede
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:44 am
Year and Model: 850 R 1997
Location: Norway

Re: 97` 850 R manual swap, long crank intermittent spark/start

Post by gswede »

Is the injection relay supposed to make a click when turn key to position II?
Now when its starting, I had mrs play around with the key back and forth to position II without cranking, no click heard of felt from relay.
But key to crank and it fires but at that stage there is to much noise so I cannot hear or feel click.
gswede
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:44 am
Year and Model: 850 R 1997
Location: Norway

Re: 97` 850 R manual swap, long crank intermittent spark/start

Post by gswede »

May have found something.

Found the hose going from evap canister to purge valve pinched in between engine cradle mount. Flat as a pancake.
fixed it but have to wait and see if it fixed car..

No doubt that hose got pinched after remounting new tranny and securing engine cradle again.

Image
Image
gswede
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:44 am
Year and Model: 850 R 1997
Location: Norway

Re: 97` 850 R manual swap, long crank intermittent spark/start

Post by gswede »

I`ll be darned. Left the car with battery unconnected over night.

Hooked it up, key position 2 for a few sec, crank and it FIRED first go!

I was prepared to remove bracket and sensor to snap a pic of the flywheel triggers but thought I ought to give it a go first.

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