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850R: Hard warm starts,fan issues, Coolant temp Sensor & more!

Help, Advice and DIY Tutorials on Volvo's extremely popular car line -- Volvo's 1990s "bread and butter" cars -- powered by the ubiquitous and durable Volvo inline 5-cylinder engine.

1992 - 1997 850, 850 R, 850 T5-R, 850 T5, 850 GLT
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bewinder
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:54 pm
Year and Model: 1997 Volvo 850-R
Location: Oregon, USA

850R: Hard warm starts,fan issues, Coolant temp Sensor & more!

Post by bewinder »

Hi everybody, big fan of the Volvo community and MVS. I've used the forum for years, but this is my first time posting for help... I am at a loss.

My Volvo is a 1997 850 R. Here are my CURRENT RELEVANT ISSUES:

1)Hard starts/won't start when warmed up - After getting the car up to temp, it cranks forever, tries to turn over, then keeps cranking. Eventually, after a dozen tries or more, it usually starts. When it does turn over, the idle goes to 2k for a few seconds, then comes back down and settles at about 850-1000.

2)Along with this, the cooling fan cycles very sporadically at both speeds and continues to run after the car is off (IAC motor buzzes after car is off, too.) Cooling fan relay is clicking and sounds functional.

3) I am getting the flashing arrow in the instrument cluster (the CEL code for the speed sensor comes on intermittently and isn't consistent with the flashing arrow). The speedometer works fine and the automatic transmission is shifting fine.

4) My current check engine codes from the OBD II reader are P0118, P1507, P1505. (while the arrow is still flashing)

5) Poor gas mileage. Runs rich and smells of gas at idle and especially at startup. Averaging 17 mpg, half highway, half city. Tune up, tire pressure hasn't improved it.

6) I don't believe it's related, but I'll throw it in just in case. I am having smoke out the dipstick and am seeping oil. I replaced the entire PCV system, cleaned the PCT nipple, and cleaned the 2 ports on the block.

Here's what I have tried and WHAT WORKS:

I'm getting fuel at the rail, The pump is priming, etc. Fuel injectors and O-rings look good. Fuel lines and Vacuum hoses are good. Spark plugs and wires are in good condition. AGAIN, when the car is at ambient temperature, it turn over after a few

A) Replaced the Coolant Temp Sensor with aftermarket. I even tried bypassing the connector and simply soldering the wires together.

B) Replaced The Fuel Pressure Regulator with a functioning used part. (Thought that fixed it for 2 days, then back to hard warm starts)

C) Replaced Fuel Injector Relay with a used one.

D)Thoroughly cleaned out IAC valve and throttle body

E) Full coolant flush and replaced both radiator hoses while I was at it.

Hopefully somebody has a clue what might be going on here... Thank you!
Sommerfeldt
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Re: 850R: Hard warm starts,fan issues, Coolant temp Sensor & more!

Post by Sommerfeldt »

bewinder wrote: A) Replaced the Coolant Temp Sensor with aftermarket. I even tried bypassing the connector and simply soldering the wires together.
This is most likely what's going on. Or air temp sensor is out. You're running rich because the ECU doesn't know how much fuel to add, and compensates on the safer side of things. That's also where no start when warm comes in. Replace with blue box part, or from OEM.

P0118 is the ECT.
P1507/1505 is the IAC. Did you take it off, then clean and check that the valve is moving freely in the housing?

Consider checking if your MAF has anything to do with it as well. When it's hard to start, unplug MAF and try again. If the car starts easier/idles better, your MAF is part of the problem.

Also check the valve thing from the EVAP system, on the radiator shroud thing. It's got a vacuum hose to the intake, and the other side goes to the charcoal canister. Unplug it, take it out, and try to blow through it. W/o 12V, it should be completely closed. If you can blow through it just a little, that's a major vacuum leak, apparently (at least according to my car), and you'll blow black smoke out the rear. :)

As for the PC pressure, you need to check that you've routed your hoses correctly on install. There's a few DIYs out there with the wrong routing. If the problem persists, you may still have blockages somewhere.

- S
'96 855 T5, R bumper and spoiler, Koni Yellows & blue H&R springs all 'round.
bewinder
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:54 pm
Year and Model: 1997 Volvo 850-R
Location: Oregon, USA

Re: 850R: Hard warm starts,fan issues, Coolant temp Sensor & more!

Post by bewinder »

Your saying the AFtermarket part could be the culprit, correct? I will order a Volvo one and try it out. I was also thinking that maybe it could be a loose connection at the other end of the ECT wires? What's the chance of that?

Bought some MAF cleaner. Going to try that.

The IAC valve was pulled out and it is free moving. All the gunk is gone.

Time do double check that charcoal cannister line too.

Thanks! I will keep you updated. Very rainy weather here in Oregon - gotta get a good weather window.
jjs70pdx
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:00 pm
Year and Model: 2000 Volvo S70 AWD
Location: Salem, OR

Re: 850R: Hard warm starts,fan issues, Coolant temp Sensor & more!

Post by jjs70pdx »

You mentioned replacing the fuel injector relay with a used one - are you sure it's in good working condition? I had the same warm start issue with my Volvo for awhile until I finally narrowed it down to the fuel injector relay. You might try swapping a new relay in or try the test in this video next time the warm start issue comes up again, and that will confirm if the used one you put in is bad:



I see that you are also in Oregon, if you are in the Portland area IPD has the fuel injector relay for around $23 and you can pick it up for free at their warehouse if you live nearby. That's where I got mine and no more warm start issues since replacing it. Wouldn't hurt to check the connections/wiring to the relay and the ECT to make sure that's not your issue.

Also, have you checked that the fuel pump relay isn't causing the warm start issue?
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misha
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Re: 850R: Hard warm starts,fan issues, Coolant temp Sensor & more!

Post by misha »

Sommerfeldt is right.

A.Ect ONLY oem.Aftermarket is nothing but trouble.Also...check it's connector on both...sensor side & harness side for corrosion and proper pins contact.

B.FPR ... if it's Motronic 4.3 than FPR is at fuel rail...If it's Mot 4.4,FPR is at fuel filter area and you will have Fuel Pressure Damper at fuel rail.
Anyway...it could make troubles you described.When FPR is bad it usually leaks fuel into vacuum line.Doing that...it floods the engine and makes hard warm and cold starts...but usually warm ones.When it starts it keeps struggling to stay running because raw fuel is choking it.Since you allready have ECT codes...i would leave FPR alone for now.

C.I doubt that is the problem since you have codes pointing in other direction

D.Will help in long term,but IAC is working along with ECT,MAF,O2 sensor in closed loop formation.Since you have bad ECT ...IAC will also make problems because of ECT.Solving ECT issue will 99% clear iac code.

E.Why didn't you replaced thermostat while you were in there?
bewinder wrote:...(IAC motor buzzes after car is off, too.)
This is what bothers me...Iac valve should NOT buzz when engine is OFF or when key is NOT in pos.II.
Possible ignition switch failure or main fuel injection relay shorted somewhere(grey one at cooling fan carrier under the hood).
Could be it's wiring,connector or it just could be bad.
'97 850 2.5 20v / fully equipped / Motronic 4.4 from the factory / upgraded with S,V,C,XC70 instrument cluster / polar white wagon
'91 Citroen XM 2.0 SI /fully equipped/mandarine red metallic
History of Volvos in the family:
'71 144 S
'73 144 De Luxe
'78 244 DL
'78 244 DL
'79 244 GLE
'85 340 GLS
bewinder
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:54 pm
Year and Model: 1997 Volvo 850-R
Location: Oregon, USA

Re: 850R: Hard warm starts,fan issues, Coolant temp Sensor & more!

Post by bewinder »

Ordered genuine volvo coolant temp sensor today -it will be here next week. Going to jack the car up so I can trace those wires to see the other side of the connection as well. Anyone know where they lead?

My 850 has the fuel pressure regulator behind the rail - that's the one I replaced.

Regarding the relay, I wasn't specific enough. I DID replace the main fuel injection relay, the big grey one above the fan shroud. No difference in starting when I tap on that. I saw the video that jjs70pdx posted. My noises, issue, and flashing issue are identical, so that's what prompted me to replace it.

Today's cleaned the MAF sensor and various relays/their connections. I will check ECT wiring and swap with the volvo one. Of that doesn't work, back to a brand new main fuel injection relay.

P.s.- forgot to mention that my oil smells like gas. These problems started occuring before a road trip where I left my dipstick out to relieve PC pressure and ended up blowing oil out of it all over my tidy engine bay D:
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misha
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Re: 850R: Hard warm starts,fan issues, Coolant temp Sensor & more!

Post by misha »

Your oil smells like fuel because the engine is running extremely rich.
When we sort this out....you will need to change the oil & filter.

Push dipstick down where it should be,otherwise your oil will be all over engine bay.Since you allready replaced pcv system don't bother with pulling dipstick out.
'97 850 2.5 20v / fully equipped / Motronic 4.4 from the factory / upgraded with S,V,C,XC70 instrument cluster / polar white wagon
'91 Citroen XM 2.0 SI /fully equipped/mandarine red metallic
History of Volvos in the family:
'71 144 S
'73 144 De Luxe
'78 244 DL
'78 244 DL
'79 244 GLE
'85 340 GLS
bewinder
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:54 pm
Year and Model: 1997 Volvo 850-R
Location: Oregon, USA

Re: 850R: Hard warm starts,fan issues, Coolant temp Sensor & more!

Post by bewinder »

Update: Replaced Coolant Temp sensor with OEM, Cleaned contacts and wiring for main fuel injection relay, checked vaccuum lines going to charcoal cannister. Changed synthetic oil and a new filter. Did the first of 3 Auto tranny drain and fills.

A couple things: Should i be able to blow through the line going to the charcoal cannister? I am not able to pass air through the lines that go from the block, through those two inline filters, without 12v. But I can through the line going to the cannister. All these lines are functioning, and I can notice the difference when I close them off. As of now, I'm still getting smoke out the dipstick tube, but the car is passing the glove inflation test.

I am still getting three codes:
P0500 - Vehicle speed sensor (where's the location for this?)
P0120 - Throttle position sensor switch. I cleaned out the throttle body, the electrical connections, but I'm still throwing the code and having occasional throttle hesitation.
P0118 - Damn ECT. I put in the new Volvo part, hard wired it, checked the wiring on the opposite end of thermo housing as far as I could go, which it just runs into a slew of other wires that I had a difficult time tracing.

I haven't had a single hard start... But, the the radiator fan will come on after I've gotten the engine nice and warmed up. It will run for 1/2 a second, 5 seconds, or whatever it feels like, and continue to randomly cycle. As of today, the fan doesn't run after the car is off, and the IAC isn't buzzing. Not sure if the colder air outside contributes to this at all since the fan started to run less and the temperature in Oregon dropped.

Car is still running pretty rich and just doesn't put off a good smell in general.
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misha
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Re: 850R: Hard warm starts,fan issues, Coolant temp Sensor & more!

Post by misha »

What do you mean by "hard wiring" of ect?
'97 850 2.5 20v / fully equipped / Motronic 4.4 from the factory / upgraded with S,V,C,XC70 instrument cluster / polar white wagon
'91 Citroen XM 2.0 SI /fully equipped/mandarine red metallic
History of Volvos in the family:
'71 144 S
'73 144 De Luxe
'78 244 DL
'78 244 DL
'79 244 GLE
'85 340 GLS
bewinder
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:54 pm
Year and Model: 1997 Volvo 850-R
Location: Oregon, USA

Re: 850R: Hard warm starts,fan issues, Coolant temp Sensor & more!

Post by bewinder »

Instead of using a two prong connector, I cut off the connector and soldered the wires to each other. Can is back to running again after the car is off...
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