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Just joined. 2nd brick owned - lost timing belt on 1st. Confused by OBD11 READINGS Topic is solved

Help, Advice and DIY Tutorials on Volvo's extremely popular car line -- Volvo's 1990s "bread and butter" cars -- powered by the ubiquitous and durable Volvo inline 5-cylinder engine.

1992 - 1997 850, 850 R, 850 T5-R, 850 T5, 850 GLT
1997 - 2000 S70, S70 AWD
1997 - 2000 V70, V70 AWD
1997 - 2000 V70-XC
1997 - 2004 C70

mopmandan
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mopmandan

Just joined. 2nd brick owned - lost timing belt on 1st. Confused by OBD11 READINGS

Post by mopmandan » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:59 am

Hello, everyone. Sorry if I get windy... So, this is my 2nd brick - 1996 850T5 wagon. Lost the engine in my first one - a 1997 850T5 - timing belt before I knew enough about Volvos. Backyard mechanic of sorts - went to auto/diesel school in the 70's. Worked in a couple of dealerships. Built engines/did repairs in my own place for a while, mostly GM and Mopar. That's my background - not a novice but Euro cars are strange to me. Been following this site for some time. Car was running fine then started revving to 4 grand on it's own. Discovered daughter let antifreeze get low, uncovering sensor. Found soft, leaking lower hose and replaced it. Cleaned sensor. Replaced overflow tank and cap. Drove it probably 1000 miles no problems. Got in it one day, hard started. Ran fine. Lunchtime, started fine. End of day, really hard to start - flooded? No start at all next day. No codes. Searched this forum...checked fuel pump fuse - good. Checked hot pin on relay - good. Pulled cover over fuel pump and checked for voltage - zip, zero, nada. Jumped past relay - voltage at pump. Replaced relay with new. Car started. Had wife drive it around (work interrupted my repairs). Drove fine all day, but when she went out later, no dice. Flooded! Threw P233 (made sense - all that fuel). Got it started after sitting overnight. Plugged in OBDII reader. Here are the results: Load % 0.8 to 2.0; RPM avg 840, fluctuates 760 to 1120; ECT 44 to 102 C (I think this is the source of issues); spark advance varies from 4.5 to 6 with blips to 3.5 and 12 degrees; MAF generally 3.18 to 3.32, varies from 2.54 to 5.55 (along with rpm and ect); TP % 10.6; 02 bisi 0.310 to 1.060; shrtft bisi % is -4.7 to -2.3 but bouncing down to -12.5 along with other fluctuations. Temperature gauge all over the place but not showing overheat. I'm not ashamed to admit when I'm over my head...😂 And I'm sure this has been covered here somewhere but I need this car. Thanks everyone. Btw, there is a guy named Robert that does some decent videos for amateurs - knows his bricks!

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erikv11
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erikv11

Re: Just joined. 2nd brick owned - lost timing belt on 1st. Confused by OBD11 READINGS

Post by erikv11 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:31 am

Likely the ECT, yes.

If the ECT that was replaced is a cheap aftermarket one, that is almost certainly the cause of the problem just like you suspected. The other thing to check with the ECT is the condition of the wiring at the connector, and the connector itself. They are known to crumble when they get old and give poor connection.
'95 854 T5-R, Motronic 4.4, 185k
'96 855 NA, 145k
'98 S70 NA, 220k (living out west)
'98 V70, T5 tune-injectors-turbo, LPT engine, 286k
'06 S60 R, 167k
'99 Camry V6 :shock: 125k
gone: '96 NA 850 210k, '98 NA V70 182k

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mrbrian200
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mrbrian200

Re: Just joined. 2nd brick owned - lost timing belt on 1st. Confused by OBD11 READINGS

Post by mrbrian200 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:56 am

Temp gauge 'all over the place' + intermittent hard start = either the coolant temp sensor is going bad, the wiring to it, or the pigtail has an intermittant break in continuity. ECTs generally like to be replaced about every 100k miles or so. The NTC thermistor element buried inside the thing is starts developing micro fractures after thousands of heat cycles that eventually make the sensor indicate an artificially cold condition to the ECU, flooding the engine at startup. After another heat cycle some of the fractures may regain electrical conductivity, only to open again later. Hence a failing ECT sensor often acts like an intermittent failure.

It is also my experience on this generation of ECU (on a '98 or '99 NA S40) that a combination of failed ECT combined with bad/intermittant signal from the throttle position sensor will result in a racing idle that seems like the car is getting ready to launch into orbit.

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misha
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misha

Re: Just joined. 2nd brick owned - lost timing belt on 1st. Confused by OBD11 READINGS

Post by misha » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:57 pm

What obdII codes and live data from a '96 T5 since they have Motronic 4.3?
Unless you have a Motronic 4.4 in it?
'97 850 2.5 20v / fully equipped / Motronic 4.4 from the factory / upgraded with S,V,C,XC70 instrument cluster / polar white wagon
'91 Citroen XM 2.0 SI /fully equipped/mandarine red metallic
History of Volvos in the family:
'71 144 S
'73 144 De Luxe
'78 244 DL
'78 244 DL
'79 244 GLE
'85 340 GLS

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erikv11
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erikv11

Re: Just joined. 2nd brick owned - lost timing belt on 1st. Confused by OBD11 READINGS

Post by erikv11 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:18 pm

All 1996 850s with an air pump, which includes turbo (T5) and non-turbo models, are Motronic 4.4.

EDIT: as misha posted later in this thread, this is wrong. The 96 T5 was Motronic.
Last edited by erikv11 on Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
These users thanked the author erikv11 for the post:
misha
'95 854 T5-R, Motronic 4.4, 185k
'96 855 NA, 145k
'98 S70 NA, 220k (living out west)
'98 V70, T5 tune-injectors-turbo, LPT engine, 286k
'06 S60 R, 167k
'99 Camry V6 :shock: 125k
gone: '96 NA 850 210k, '98 NA V70 182k

mopmandan
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Year and Model: 1996 850 t5 wagon
Location: Illinois
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mopmandan

Re: Just joined. 2nd brick owned - lost timing belt on 1st. Confused by OBD11 READINGS

Post by mopmandan » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:38 pm

Thank you all for such prompt replies. As I recall in reading other posts here and on Swedish Bricks, '96 and forward (and some very late '95s) are OBD11. Means Motronic 4.4. In response to mrbrian200, I did not change the ECT, but only cleaned it. It looked like new, as did the thermostat. Previous owner changed timing belt, water pump, etc. when he switched this engine in for a bad one. I have had it for almost 2 years and it was his wife's daily driver before that. I'll have another go at it. Any brands suggested? Getting ready to change oil and filter. Valvoline 100% synthetic and Bosch filter. Mann air filter and new fuel filter too. She better respond to all this lavish attention. Gave her Pirelli's last year. 😎

mopmandan
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mopmandan

Re: Just joined. 2nd brick owned - lost timing belt on 1st. Confused by OBD11 READINGS

Post by mopmandan » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:41 pm

Sorry, should be responding to erikv11.

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erikv11
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erikv11

Re: Just joined. 2nd brick owned - lost timing belt on 1st. Confused by OBD11 READINGS

Post by erikv11 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:56 pm

OBDII does not mean Motronic 4.4
96 are maybe half Motronic 4.3, half Motronic 4.4. But every 96 is OBDII.

The easiest way to tell if your 96 is 4.4 or 4.3 is to see if it has an air pump (that makes it 4.4) or decode the VIN (http://new.volvocars.com/ownersdocs/199 ... n1996.html).

I can't remember what the factory ECT sensor brand is, maybe misha will chime back in he always does.

You can ohm out the sensor at diff temps to test it, satisfying and pretty easy to do. Search here for the values or this guy wrote a treatise about it (https://volvo850wagon.wordpress.com/201 ... -stalling/), makes a good read although do *not* get a cheap aftermarket sensor, it will just fail 6-12 months down the road.
'95 854 T5-R, Motronic 4.4, 185k
'96 855 NA, 145k
'98 S70 NA, 220k (living out west)
'98 V70, T5 tune-injectors-turbo, LPT engine, 286k
'06 S60 R, 167k
'99 Camry V6 :shock: 125k
gone: '96 NA 850 210k, '98 NA V70 182k

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misha
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Year and Model: '97 850 2.5 20v
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misha

Re: Just joined. 2nd brick owned - lost timing belt on 1st. Confused by OBD11 READINGS

Post by misha » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:18 am

erikv11 wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:18 pm
All 1996 850s with an air pump, which includes turbo (T5) and non-turbo models, are Motronic 4.4.
No erikv11....T5 models have Motronic 4.4 only from '98 in s,v70 models.
850 T5 are all Motronic 4.3 from the factory.
Non turbo with an air pump from '96 & '97 have Motronic 4.4 and ALL '97 non turbo(B5254S) are Motronic 4.4.

There is no live data on Motronic 4.3 because it produce flash codes,just like ECC on 850s....S,V70 ECC is fully obdII.
Ect (oem) is SWF (Valeo)....only aftermarket one i would use is Vernet.
Last edited by misha on Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
'97 850 2.5 20v / fully equipped / Motronic 4.4 from the factory / upgraded with S,V,C,XC70 instrument cluster / polar white wagon
'91 Citroen XM 2.0 SI /fully equipped/mandarine red metallic
History of Volvos in the family:
'71 144 S
'73 144 De Luxe
'78 244 DL
'78 244 DL
'79 244 GLE
'85 340 GLS

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jreed
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jreed

Re: Just joined. 2nd brick owned - lost timing belt on 1st. Confused by OBD11 READINGS

Post by jreed » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:08 am

Agreed with misha. I tried an FAE brand ECT once and it drifted out of spec after a couple years:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=61920
1997 855 GLT (Light Pressure Turbo) still going strong. Previous: 1986 240 GL rusted out in '06, 1985 Saab 900T rusted out in '95, 1975 Saab 99 rusted out in '95, 1973 Saab 99 rusted out in '94

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