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Speed meter 15% too optimistic Topic is solved

Help, Advice and DIY Tutorials on Volvo's extremely popular car line -- Volvo's 1990s "bread and butter" cars -- powered by the ubiquitous and durable Volvo inline 5-cylinder engine.

1992 - 1997 850, 850 R, 850 T5-R, 850 T5, 850 GLT
1997 - 2000 S70, S70 AWD
1997 - 2000 V70, V70 AWD
1997 - 2000 V70-XC
1997 - 2004 C70

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Esperado
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Re: Speed meter 15% too optimistic

Post by Esperado » Wed May 27, 2020 1:59 pm

misha wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 12:37 pm
Post a picture of back side of the cluster....to see Volvo number and the other numbers.
I'll see if i can check them for you.

Part # are different for E.U and U.S market.

EDIT....
Just saw that you're from Portugal....so it is km/h speedo.
So nice from you, misha.
Yes, it is Kmh. And, I believe that the source of my problem: I suspect my used-car dealer to had cheated with the mileage, replacing some part of the odometer with an US one in miles.
The one I ordered is: Part number: 9472519; 9168144
Attached pictures of it for the numbers of mine:
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Re: Speed meter 15% too optimistic

Post by Esperado » Wed May 27, 2020 2:04 pm

And the one I ordered ( a bulb not in the same place ):
But I can see-it in 1998 cars. By example:
https://www.b-parts.com/en/store/produc ... 1999-2000/

And I can see the same number, but with indications in miles and not the same scale https://www.usedecus.com/en/volvo/s70/v ... d-9472519/

I'm completly lost. Are -they all totally insane, in the Volvo r&d offices ?
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Re: Speed meter 15% too optimistic

Post by misha » Wed May 27, 2020 2:43 pm

Looks like it's from '99:
https://www.usedecus.com/en/volvo/s70/v ... 0-9472725/

At the back of the cluster...part # under VOLVO...towards the left from date production(under PP T40).
That number counts.
According to production date 19/11/98 it is for '99....since it's the end of a year.
Last edited by misha on Wed May 27, 2020 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'97 850 2.5 20v / fully equipped / Motronic 4.4 from the factory / upgraded with S,V,C,XC70 instrument cluster / polar white wagon
'91 Citroen XM 2.0 SI /fully equipped/mandarine red metallic
History of Volvos in the family:
'71 144 S
'73 144 De Luxe
'78 244 DL
'78 244 DL
'79 244 GLE
'85 340 GLS

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Re: Speed meter 15% too optimistic

Post by misha » Wed May 27, 2020 2:49 pm

The easiest way to check compatibility is to remove the bulb sockets from right side for warning lights and with a help of flashlight to check if it have ETS light(that's for '99 & '00).

If it have Lambda symbol it's for '97 & '98.
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Esperado
'97 850 2.5 20v / fully equipped / Motronic 4.4 from the factory / upgraded with S,V,C,XC70 instrument cluster / polar white wagon
'91 Citroen XM 2.0 SI /fully equipped/mandarine red metallic
History of Volvos in the family:
'71 144 S
'73 144 De Luxe
'78 244 DL
'78 244 DL
'79 244 GLE
'85 340 GLS

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Re: Speed meter 15% too optimistic

Post by Esperado » Wed May 27, 2020 4:24 pm

misha wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 2:49 pm
The easiest way to check compatibility is to remove the bulb sockets from right side for warning lights and with a help of flashlight to check if it have ETS light(that's for '99 & '00).

If it have Lambda symbol it's for '97 & '98.
My car is 97 &98, for sure, but you never see the dashboard fully illuminated on used parts for sale on Internet ;-)
The number you refer on the piece I ordered, not easy to read on the photo is 0451580.
The printed board near the warning light is not the same neither.
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Re: Speed meter 15% too optimistic

Post by misha » Wed May 27, 2020 4:46 pm

I know that....I was reffering to the cluster you bought as a replacement...for a quick check of compatibility.

EDIT:
ETS light is at left side of the cluster...just besides srs light.
'97 850 2.5 20v / fully equipped / Motronic 4.4 from the factory / upgraded with S,V,C,XC70 instrument cluster / polar white wagon
'91 Citroen XM 2.0 SI /fully equipped/mandarine red metallic
History of Volvos in the family:
'71 144 S
'73 144 De Luxe
'78 244 DL
'78 244 DL
'79 244 GLE
'85 340 GLS

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Re: Speed meter 15% too optimistic  Topic is solved

Post by esl_97_850_T5 » Wed May 27, 2020 6:01 pm

Esperado,

Here's some info exerpted from a recent PM you haven't read yet (and which you and others might find interesting / useful related to your speedometer 15% off error, and the peculiarities of how your COMBI is programmed)...

0. The "850 OBD-II" V1.3.4 app reports your present cluster identification as:

ECU 51 (COMBI)
09148926 P/N Part Number
A H/W Rev.
09168133 Software
23 S/W Rev


and the jonesrh KWPD3B0 interpreter lists it as:

ECU 51 B9F0 = Hardware Version & Rev: 0009148926 A / Software Version & Rev: 09168133 23.

Those COMBI ids are by far and away the most common seen via that interpreter's logs for non-USA '97-'98 S70/V70/C70/XC70. So I think it is very likely the appropriate type cluster for your car.

If you order another one, that 9148926 part # is likely the one you need to order.

misha can affirm or disaffirm that.

Now to the meat of what I want to convey here...

1. Your SERVICE Reset Interval counters (from last "SERVICE Light Reset") seem to have implausible values:
140 miles / 1.5 days / 38 engine hours.

How could you possibly run the engine for 38 hours during 1.5 days?!?!
I don't know how to explain that?!?!

I'm assuming you *did* Reset SERVICE Light sometime in the last very few days. Correct?

If you didn't do that Reset SERVICE Light recently, or if you (or someone) doesn't have a good explanation for how you can get 38 engine hours out of 1.5 days, then I would strongly recommend replacing the cluster.

2. Your ECU 51 B90A = 3B 00 (= 0x003B = 59 decimal) is the 2nd highest value I've ever seen. That value increments when the Vehicle Speed Signal from the ABS is not making its way to the COMBI properly. That value increased from 05 00 (ie, decimal 5 on 2018-11-01) to 3B 00 (ie, decimal 59 on 2020-05-26). If you ever see ECU 51 B90A incrementing again, then your ABS most likely has problems; else there's connectivity issues between the ABS and COMBI; else the COMBI has croaked.

3. ECU 51 B90D (Fuel Level Adjustment) has been changed from the default value of 05 back on 2018-11-01 (ie, in the very 1st "850 OBD-II" log that you submitted to the interpreter) to the value of 0F now. The 0F came about sometime between 2018-11-01 and 2020-05-26. I suspected that you had mistyped something when programming ECU 51 B90E = 0F, but I couldn't find any record of issuing a B80D0F command in your logs. So I haven't a clue how that occurred. In any case, unless you have explicitly chosen to adjust the Fuel Level gauge, I suggest you change that back to 05 (the default value for the S70/V70/C70/XC70).

4. ECU 51 B901 (Market Code) should probably be changed from 21 hex (which seems to be 850 oriented) to B2 (which seems to be the most likely value for your S70). See this ECU 51 B901 (COMBI Market Code) info for values B2 hex and 21 hex. Considering your 15% speedometer error (and your dealer's failure to solve the problem), it's at least worth a try to do this before replacing with another cluster.
WARNING: You are responsible if this reprogramming totally destroys your cluster! Do not perform this Market Code reprogramming unless you are confident it will not harm your cluster!
CAVEAT: The value of B2 hex is specific to Esperado's car. Other users tempted to use this solution should consider thoroughly what is the appropriate value for their car!
NOTE: It is possible that "850 OBD-II" app can perform this Country Code / Market Code reprogramming. But I have ceased testing that function anymore, so I no longer recommend using "850 OBD-II" for this purpose. I recommend using the dealer to perform this reprogramming if at all possible. This post has been created because Esperado was not able to depend on his dealer to correct his 15% speedometer error problem, and because I think this reprogramming is probably not going to harm his cluster, but may actually help it function as intended.


5. You can probably do changes 3 and 4 via these 24-29 commands to an ELM327-compatible device using the terminal emulation capability of "850 OBD-II" app (or using some other terminal emulator on an Android, Win10, Linux, etc system):

Code: Select all

ATZ
ATL1       (use ATL0 for "OBD Now Terminal", etc)
ATE0       (some terminal emulators might work better with ATE1)
ATSP 3
ATDP
ATH1
ATAL
ATKW0      (this is ATKW followed by the zero)
ATSR 13
ATIIA 51   (this atiia51 command **MUST** respond with OK)
ATWM 82 51 13 A1
ATSH 83 51 13
AE01       (wait for up to 8 seconds, or until "...OK" is displayed)
AE01       (if first AE01 shows "ERROR", then repeat AE01 until "...OK" and line containing "13 51 EE 01" appears) 
AE02
AE05
B901       (I believe your present value is 21)
B90D       (I believe your present value is 0F)
ATSH 84 51 13
B801 B2    (change your Market Code from your existing value to B2)
B80D 05    (do this unless you decide to leave the Fuel Level Adjustment as 0F)
ATSH 83 51 13
B901       (these 2 commands are to verify the programming that was just done)
B90D

Then you might also issue the next 5 commands to see if there's been any changes 
recently in the SERVICE Reset Interval counters (or "Lost Mileage" data).  
If you follow the above command list with the "850 OBD-II" app "Scan" function,
then there''s no need to issue the following 5 commands:

B903
B904
B906
B908
B90A
Be sure to scroll till the bottom of the list and issue at least the first 24 commands -- ie, thru the 1st list's final B90D.

esl_97_850_T5

P.S. Your new "850 OBD-II" V1.3.4 app has the ability to Clear DTCs for a single ECU at a time. I suggest trying that out every once in a while, especially for the ECUs that still seem to consistently report the same DTC(s) in your car: SRS, VGLA, PSL (Power Seat Left), AW50-42.

Edited to add Warning, Caveat, and Note to item 4.
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1998 Volvo S70 GLT - 205.5K miles - S70 & M44 testbed in 2016-2019; traded 2019-07-15 (for spare time)
1997 Volvo 854 T5 - 147K miles - 850 testbed in 2012-2017; junked 2017-09

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Re: Speed meter 15% too optimistic

Post by Esperado » Wed May 27, 2020 11:39 pm

esl_97_850_T5 wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 6:01 pm
1. Your SERVICE Reset Interval counters (from last "SERVICE Light Reset") seem to have implausible values:
140 miles / 1.5 days / 38 engine hours.

How could you possibly run the engine for 38 hours during 1.5 days?!?!
I don't know how to explain that?!?!
I'm assuming you *did* Reset SERVICE Light sometime in the last very few days. Correct?
As I said-you by PM, i did service two days ago. Based on my point of view I assume 1.5 day is just an other interpretation of 38 hours ;-)
esl_97_850_T5 wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 6:01 pm
2. Your ECU 51 B90A = 3B 00 (= 0x003B = 59 decimal) is the 2nd highest value I've ever seen. That value increments when the Vehicle Speed Signal from the ABS is not making its way to the COMBI properly. That value increased from 05 00 (ie, decimal 5 on 2018-11-01) to 3B 00 (ie, decimal 59 on 2020-05-26). If you ever see ECU 51 B90A incrementing again, then your ABS most likely has problems; else there's connectivity issues between the ABS and COMBI; else the COMBI has croaked.
My Volvo has more mileage in vertical than horizontal (see what I mean ?) I had to fix the #π$¤*@ ABS module 3 times since I have-it, and it was yet opened when i dismounted-it the first time. Could this explain this number ? May-be the same kind of Bosh bad contacts in my SRS module ?
esl_97_850_T5 wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 6:01 pm
3. ECU 51 B90D (Fuel Level Adjustment) has been changed from the default value of 05 back on 2018-11-01 (ie, in the very 1st "850 OBD-II" log that you submitted to the interpreter) to the value of 0F now. The 0F came about sometime between 2018-11-01 and 2020-05-26. I suspected that you had mistyped something when programming ECU 51 B90E = 0F, but I couldn't find any record of issuing a B80D0F command in your logs. So I haven't a clue how that occurred. In any case, unless you have explicitly chosen to adjust the Fuel Level gauge, I suggest you change that back to 05 (the default value for the S70/V70/C70/XC70).
Could-you explain what kind of behavior do-it change on the fuel gauge ?
esl_97_850_T5 wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 6:01 pm
4. ECU 51 B901 (Market Code) should probably be changed from 21 hex (which seems to be 850 oriented) to B2 (which seems to be the most likely value for your S70). See this ECU 51 B901 (COMBI Market Code) info for values B2 hex and 21 hex. Considering your 15% speedometer error (and your dealer's failure to solve the problem), it's at least worth a try to do this before replacing with another cluster.
Well I tried once, with no success, I don't know why. Did an other total DTC reset, just in case, and tried your code a second time. I had seen "no data" to all the AE and B901 & B90D commands. the afraiting ones ... and this time the B901 responded B2 and the B90D 0.5. And you know what ?
My SPEEDO is ACCURATE NOW
Oh, man you are a real god ! (And I was not so stupid, with my suspicion on the country code ;-)
And you know what ? The seller of my new ordered old cluster had not send-it yet and is OK for a refund !!!

Thank-you, thank-you, thank-you, Richard. 4 years i was bored with this problem. Thank-you.

And thanks to all of you, who tried to help-me in a so nice way and gave me valuate informations that can be useful in the future.
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Re: Speed meter 15% too optimistic

Post by esl_97_850_T5 » Thu May 28, 2020 3:16 am

Esperado,

1. Fantastic. Glad to here the speedo is correct now.

I like:
My SPEEDO is ACCURATE NOW
and
I'M HAPPY.

But it's important to know exactly what fixed your problem(s). Please paste the entire contents of the 850log.txt (that records the DTC clearing, the B901 and B90D reprogramming and verification and all errors that occurred during that process, and any complete Scan, with the accompanying Summary) into the KWPD3B0 interpreter's Paste here box, then press Interpret.

2. Concerning the 1.5 days and the 38 hours (and your assertion in the PM that only the mileage triggers the SERVICE light)...

Any of the 3 SERVICE Reset Interval (SRI) counters can trigger the SERVICE light coming on, *if* one of them exhausts its respective limit. Common European '98 S70 T5 limits are: 7500 km, 360 days (=1440 0.25 day intervals [but typically listed as 12 months or 1 year]), and 500 engine hours.

The SRI 1/4 Days counter = 1.50 days actually reflects 1.50 to 1.75 days, ie, 36-42 hours. 38 definitely fits in that range.

Almost always, if you've reset SERVICE light 1.5 days ago, your SRI Engine Hours counter will then be somewhere between 0-10 hours, depending on how much you've driven during those 1.5-1.75 days. The only time I could image Engine Hours counter reaching 38 hours while calender time was 36-42 hours would be during a near non-stop cross country USA trip or trans-Siberian trip.

But now that I think about it... What if the implementation of the Engine Hours counter is merely a record of how many hours Ignition is at pos I (or whatever position the ignition falls back to after starting the engine). Then:
a) if you had the instrument cluster out of the car, yet powered as if ignition was at pos I for 38 hours, or
b) if you left the cluster in the cluster in the car, left ignition on pos I for 38 hours (maybe because you had been listening to some music and forgot to turn the ignition off after turning the music off), then I could possibly believe SRI Engine Hours counter could increment to 38 Engine Hours in 36-42 calendar hours.

Interesting. I think I just learned something new.

Enough speculation. I no longer think there's reason to doubt the cluster because of the 38 Engine Hours in 1.5 days. And I no longer think those SRI counters are implausible.

3. Let's hope that your last ABS fix was performed *after* that "850 OBD-II" scan (reportedly on 2018-11-01) that recorded ECU 51 B90A = 05 00 (ie, 0005 hex) and that there has been no further incrementing of B90A since it reached B90A = 3B 00 (ie, 003B hex). I'll leave it to you to check that periodically. Because if it does increment **any**, then something is awry that might affect either the odometer and/or the speedometer and/or the mileage in ECU 51 B903.

4. In my USA '98 S70 GLT, changing ECU 51 B90D from 05 hex to 0F hex caused the Fuel Level gauge to lower about 0.560 US gallons (but it might take minutes for the lowering to complete). Changing ECU 51 B90D back from 0F hex to 05 hex caused the Fuel Level gauge to rise (very suddenly) about 0.560 US gallons.

I'd expect the same general behavior for your car, though the precise amount of decrease/increase might be somewhat different. At ECU 51 B90D = 0F hex the Low Fuel alarm will come on sooner than at the 97-98 S70 ECU 51 B90D = 05 hex (default value for S/V/C/XC70).

For more details, see B90D - Fuel Level Adjustment and/or item 0D in jonesrh's ECU_51_B9_Meaning_of_Values_raw_notes.rtf docs.

5. Concerning your "how to read ECU 51 B90A with 850 OBD-II app?" question...
Recent versions of "850 OBD-II" app scan ECU 51 B90A during the "Scan" function, then report that value in the Summary on a line similar to the following:

59 Hours of lost kilometres (per 1000 km)

That line was seen when your ECU 51 B90A = 3B 00 = 003B hex = 59 decimal.

I believe the "850 OBD-II" app interprets ECU 51 B90A more similar to how the Volvo Scan Tool (VST) does, **not** how jonesrh's KWPD3B0 interpreter (possibly erroneously) interprets it. The jonesrh KWPD3B0 interpreter is based upon my experience with my '97 850 T5. It might not be applicable to someone else's ABS failure behavior.

Looking at this ECU 51 B90A business in hindsight, I think it's moot. It's mere speculation how many miles were "lost" when ABS was failing. I wouldn't put much faith in either the jonesrh KWPD3B0 interpreter approach or the "850 OBD-II" approach or the VST approach at interpreting "lost mileage".

esl_97_850_T5
1998 Volvo S70 GLT - 205.5K miles - S70 & M44 testbed in 2016-2019; traded 2019-07-15 (for spare time)
1997 Volvo 854 T5 - 147K miles - 850 testbed in 2012-2017; junked 2017-09

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Re: Speed meter 15% too optimistic

Post by Esperado » Thu May 28, 2020 3:50 am

esl_97_850_T5 wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 3:16 am
But it's important to know exactly what fixed your problem(s).
It is very clear: this B901 ->B2 value.
It seems obvious to me, now, that tire size tune the ratio between the frequency from ABS and the speed value showed by the needle of the speedometer, to cancel the little changes due to various wheel diameters, and that the "country code" do the same thing, but this time adapt the position of the needle to the inscriptions on the speedometer, the scales that vary, depending on the country (Miles, km) and type of the car (fuel, gasoline).

About lost milometers, it is not insane to suppose I've drive 59 Hours with my ABS warning light shining or blinking.

I will do a total scan today, and will send-it to the interpreter in the night.
May-be i could chase the last litle DTC that remain, SRS and power seat, for the pleasure to have a 0 DTC 100% working Volvo, that never happened since I own it ? One thing is strange, it is the new "battery alarm" one that appeared suddenly : I dont have an alarm on this car.

[edit]ABS problems back again (and again and again). Each time I fix something there is something else that fail. Hats off Volvo !
Last edited by Esperado on Thu May 28, 2020 3:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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