IPD sale XeMODeX - Experts in Volvo Electronics Free shipping all USA - Experts in Brakes
Did you know? 🤔
Logged in users can get email notification of topic replies Log in or register (free).
Amazon Link Buy anything with this and it helps MVS!

1995 Volvo 850 GLT long crank

Help, Advice and DIY Tutorials on Volvo's extremely popular car line -- Volvo's 1990s "bread and butter" cars -- powered by the ubiquitous and durable Volvo inline 5-cylinder engine.

1992 - 1997 850, 850 R, 850 T5-R, 850 T5, 850 GLT
1997 - 2000 S70, S70 AWD
1997 - 2000 V70, V70 AWD
1997 - 2000 V70-XC
1997 - 2004 C70

ollen001
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 pm
Year and Model: Volvo 850 GLT 1995
Location: Minneapolis
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0
United States of America
ollen001

1995 Volvo 850 GLT long crank

Post by ollen001 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:21 pm

(A call for help from Minneapolis....)

1995 Volvo 850 GLT, 20 valve, non turbo, naturally aspirated, 5 speed manual (M56) with 126K miles on the clock. I'm the third owner.

I have a long crank problem which has developed over the last two years. I am the third owner and done most of the work myself. The only thing that I couldn’t do was replace the manual transmission when it suddenly went out and that was done by an independent shop. (and this might be my problem…)

(Here's a post that seems to describe my exact problem)

https://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=8440

The car started with a delayed crank, perhaps five to ten seconds and it was intermittent. This is my winter car, so I cannot exactly remember when it started but it has gotten worse over the years so that it now takes 90 seconds or more to start, if the battery holds out that long. And I have replaced batteries. A reliable way to get it started is to put the charger on in “start” mode and that starts it every time eventually. But you really have to ride the starter. Perhaps 90 seconds to two minutes. Once started it's fine, but you cannot turn it off for more than ten minutes without having to go through this yet again. ( *sigh* )

I have methodically gone through all the usual suspects and have *multiple* known good duplicates of all of these:

Fuel pump
Fuel pump relay (I have about ten of these and I am also an expert on jumping the relay…)
Fuel filter (new Bosch)
Fuel pressure regulator
Spark plugs (OEM Volvo 3 prong less than 3 months old)
Spark plug wires (Bougicord – two years old)
Cap and rotor (Bosch OEM equivalent)
Ignition coil (multiple used units and they all test out good)
Coolant temperature sensor (three known good spares)
Camshaft position sensor (four known good spares)
Crankshaft position sensor (four known good spares)

In addition, this car has had:
Timing belt, all tensioners, water pump (all OEM, Aisin or OEM equivalent)
Voltage regulator (Bosch)

Grounds were cleaned as I came across them and reattached. The car charges the battery as specified and the starter turns with vigor.

I methodically went through all the diagnostics as best I could. I finally gave up and decided to take it to an independent Volvo only shop with a known reputation.

They spent several hours diagnosing and found: no power to the injectors when cranking.

Fuel pressure is good, but no spark. They found they can easily push start the car and it reliably starts immediately. They went through every sensor, all grounds, the ignition switch, checked all of my components. Put the sensors on a scope when running.

It all looks good, except:

When engaging the starter, the fuel injectors won’t fire, but they get a small burst of activity just as you are turning the ignition off.

They are thinking it is electromagnetic interference from a faulty starter. The starter however does not draw amps above what is specified. And it turns over correctly and quickly.

A word about this starter: it is the original starter since I know the first two owners and they claim they never replaced it. I park the car over summers in a garage and only use it in winter. Several years ago the solenoid stuck and all I got was click-click-click when turning the key. I took out the starter (what a fun job) and used compressed air to blow out a lot of dust, lubricated it, used a wired brush to take off all the grease, wiped it down and bench tested it. I got the solenoid to push out the gear when energized from a 12 volt battery on the bench. I recall really bench testing this thing to make sure that the gear came out and spun when energized. It worked perfectly and I put it back in and didn’t think anything about it. It ran.

Sometime later, the manual transmission went out. I couldn’t do it myself so I had an independent install a used low mileage M56. I remember picking it up that it still had the long crank.

I have been told by the current shop that it is either the starter causing electromagnetic interference to the crank/camshaft sensors (not sure which one…), or, as reading in this and other Volvo forums, that when the transmission was installed the mating surfaces of the transmission and the engine have to be extremely clean. If they aren’t, you can also get electromagnetic noise to the crankshaft or camshaft sensor (don’t know which it would be) and that the car would have a long crank since the electromagnetic noise interferes with the timing signals.

If it’s the starter, this is relatively easy and I’m guessing that’s the end of it.

If it’s the transmission, I have read that you can separate the transmission from the engine and use emory or “rifle cleaners” and brake cleaner to clean the mating surfaces between the engine and transmission.

Question: If it is the mating surface between the engine and the transmission, can it be done while the transmission is in the car? Or do they have to pull the transmission? It seems from the various write-ups that it can be done in the car by separating the engine and transmission an inch and cleaning. Has anyone else done this before?

I’ve replaced a lot of stuff on this car and it runs perfectly and want to keep it. But pulling the transmission again makes me wonder. I almost cannot believe that the mating surface can be an issue, but it is.

Somebody, please throw me a bone. Comments, ideas, experiences are all welcome. The car runs great once started. Don't want to give up an otherwise excellent runner.

User avatar
Clemens
Posts: 1149
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:34 pm
Year and Model: 96 855 R + 94 855 T5
Location: Austria
Has thanked: 91 times
Been thanked: 45 times
Austria
Clemens

Re: 1995 Volvo 850 GLT long crank

Post by Clemens » Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:50 am

Just a few thoughts:

check the wires to the starter and the alternator. if they get corroded, they might screw up something. a corroded ABS unit wire caused strange error codes on my 96. Worth checking that out because it is easy to do and cheap.

also, the ignition lock gets bad with time and use. if this is screwed up, you can get weird electronic gremlins. again, unlikely, but you are asking for bones.

since yours is a 95, it should not have any anti theft device. if it had, this could cause a no spark or no fuel situation.

no idea about sepersting the tranny frommthe motor. how did you manage to break a M56, btw.?

Good luck!
Summer: 1996 855 R
Winter: 1994 855 T5M
Donor: 1995 854 10V

User avatar
Clemens
Posts: 1149
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:34 pm
Year and Model: 96 855 R + 94 855 T5
Location: Austria
Has thanked: 91 times
Been thanked: 45 times
Austria
Clemens

Re: 1995 Volvo 850 GLT long crank

Post by Clemens » Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:00 am

also, check out this guy's story:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=74923&start=20

there seem to be different flexplates, changing the polarity of the crank sensor. the solutuon is on page 3.

EDIT: since abscate is in correction mood, I will clarify that: the guy in this thread swapped from auto to manual. and the flywheel has round or rectangular holes. thw ones on his flexplate were round, his M56 flywheel had rectangular holes. so if the flywheels on the old and new tranny are different, you might encounter these problems...
Last edited by Clemens on Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Summer: 1996 855 R
Winter: 1994 855 T5M
Donor: 1995 854 10V

User avatar
abscate
MVS Moderator
Posts: 20514
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:54 pm
Year and Model: 99T5 ,99S70,2005V70
Location: NYC, ALBANY NY
Has thanked: 287 times
Been thanked: 905 times
Trinidad & Tobago
abscate

Re: 1995 Volvo 850 GLT long crank

Post by abscate » Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:35 am

Flex plates with an M56?

It’s worth going to the injectors and see if the 12V supply or the ECM grounding side is the problem.

The 12V supply is easy to monitor, the ECM grounding is more difficult.
The fact that it push starts easily is indicative of the starter somehow inhibiting signals. That would be enough for me to replace it with either a new one , eBay, or a pick n pull one.

Cranking for 30 seconds has probably killed it anyway

You could put in a $5 ground strap between the engine and m56 between the mounting bolts and the ground point.
Empty Nester
A Captain in a Sea of Estrogen
1999-V70-T5M56 2005-V70-M56 1999-S70 VW T4 BMW
Link to Maintenance record thread
Link To Volvo Glossary

User avatar
callahanoffroad
Posts: 365
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:25 pm
Year and Model: 1995 850
Location: St. Louis Missouri
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 33 times
United States of America
callahanoffroad

Re: 1995 Volvo 850 GLT long crank

Post by callahanoffroad » Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:21 am

I have a suggestion. I'm in this current situation. Are you certain that your fuel backflow check valve is good? It's such a silly thing that you never think about it. It retains fuel pressure in the lines when you turn your vehicle off.

You can figure out if it's the backflow valve by simply turning the ignition to "run" and waiting for the fuel pump to stop it's whining noise. Then try to start. If it fired right up after the pump stops pressurising then that's your culprit. I also have a '95 manual. It's a funny little car. Totally different than my '96 and with totally different engine problems.

Also, I think I have a spare used starter if you need it. I'm in Missouri so shipping wouldn't be too bad I don't think.
Author, Chef, and Shade Tree Mechanic

1995 Volvo 850, Non-Turbo, VVIS, LH FI, Green, 215,000 miles. B5254FS engine. Herman. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=84393

1996 Volvo 850, died at 280,000

Founder of: CookingForChemo.Org

ollen001
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 pm
Year and Model: Volvo 850 GLT 1995
Location: Minneapolis
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0
United States of America
ollen001

Re: 1995 Volvo 850 GLT long crank

Post by ollen001 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:35 am

Thanks for the replies! I'll address the issues below:

Clemens: the only codes thrown have been camshaft and crankshaft sensors. But these have been swapped out with known goods. While the car is running, the shop has spliced into the lines and looked on the scope. Perfection.

The shop has checked grounds but I will have them followup with wiring to/from starter/alternator.

You ask how the M56 transmission died? This was a "gift" Volvo from a co-worker. I don't think she was a great shifter but she was a slow driver. One day, while going down a steep hill, I tried to downshift and everything was gone and it never came back. Auf Deutsch: Die Frau wahrscheinlich hatte keine Ahnung von Schaltung und brachte das Ganze durcheinander wegen alle dieser Nichtwissendesschaltung. Oder so Aehnlich. Ich habe das alte noch im Garage mit der Hoffnung jemand koennte das doch reparieren. Ich bin Volksdeutscher.

Abscate: I'm hoping a new refurbished Bosch starter fixes the issue. That is the shop's first attempt. The shop swapped out both ECM/ECU with known goods, actually from another customers car as well. Mine start the customers car immediately. So those two computers seem to be ok. The ground to the ECM, I will mention that to them. They've been in business since the 1950s and only deal with Volvos so I'm thinking they went that far already, after five hours of diagnostics! I had read the post about the guy who reversed polarity. They key issue is that I went from M56 to M56; the car has not been converted from automatic to manual? So as to flex plates, *can* that still be an issue? I can only hope for such a solution. As to the current starter: it is the original OEM from the factory and 25 years old. What could possibly go wrong with it? (smile) They will be replacing that on Monday. Let's hope!

Callahanoffroad: The shop has checked fuel pressure. It's good. Fuel pump, fuel filter, fuel pressure regulator and fuel pump relay and all known goods and I have spares for all of these. The shop has only determined that there is no fuel injector pulse when cranking. Once running, you can drive the car to Chicago as long as you don't turn off the engine for more than ten minutes. It accelerates like it has a turbo: everything in the ignition and fuel system has been replaced with known good or new OEM/Volvo. But, question, where is the back flow check valve? Is it in/with the fuel pump? Also, as you said, and the shop confirmed: 1995 series naturally aspirated are in their own little world. Separate computers for spark and fuel and some other "features" that were weeded out in subsequent years. When started, this car is amazing. And it should be since I've replaced basically everything. But the car *does* need to start to be useful, doesn't it? (Please... let me get this car fixed!)

I appreciate all of your replies. Keep it coming.

Mark

ollen001
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 pm
Year and Model: Volvo 850 GLT 1995
Location: Minneapolis
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0
United States of America
ollen001

Re: 1995 Volvo 850 GLT long crank

Post by ollen001 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:39 am

I forgot to mention this post from much earlier regarding the same issue. Please check out Jimmy57 reply on this similar/same issue:

viewtopic.php?t=53441

Someone is calling this guy Jimmy the Volvo Whisperer. I wish he could whisper me some solutions.

User avatar
abscate
MVS Moderator
Posts: 20514
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:54 pm
Year and Model: 99T5 ,99S70,2005V70
Location: NYC, ALBANY NY
Has thanked: 287 times
Been thanked: 905 times
Trinidad & Tobago
abscate

Re: 1995 Volvo 850 GLT long crank

Post by abscate » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:24 am

Eine Losung, nur auf HĂĽgeln parken

:D

Bosch rebuilt starters arent as good as they used to be - they have been outsourced to overseas cheap labour. A good used one from a wrecked car in a junkyard is better and cheaper.

I am bit worried the 1995 is sequential FIJ and my knowledge base doesn't apply.
Empty Nester
A Captain in a Sea of Estrogen
1999-V70-T5M56 2005-V70-M56 1999-S70 VW T4 BMW
Link to Maintenance record thread
Link To Volvo Glossary

scot850
Posts: 5772
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:46 pm
Year and Model: 2000 V70 R
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 188 times
Canada
scot850

Re: 1995 Volvo 850 GLT long crank

Post by scot850 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:23 pm

Check the routing of the cam sensor. Make sure you maximise the gap between it's wires and the distributor. It will cause the cam sensor signal to get neutralised if too close to distributor.

I would also check the ignition key electrical portion and swap it out as suggested earlier.

Finally check the water temp sensor wires and connector at the mount behind the power steering. They corrode and fail.

Neil.
2000 V70 R - still being an endless PITA
2006 XC70
2003 Toyota 4Runner V8 Limited
2015 Kia Sportage EX-L
1993 850 GLT -Sold
1998 V70 XC - Sold
1997 Volvo 850 SE NA - Went to niece in California - Sold
2000 V70 SE NA - New project and test bed - Sold

User avatar
abscate
MVS Moderator
Posts: 20514
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:54 pm
Year and Model: 99T5 ,99S70,2005V70
Location: NYC, ALBANY NY
Has thanked: 287 times
Been thanked: 905 times
Trinidad & Tobago
abscate

Re: 1995 Volvo 850 GLT long crank

Post by abscate » Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:35 pm

ollen001 wrote: ↑
Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:39 am
I forgot to mention this post from much earlier regarding the same issue. Please check out Jimmy57 reply on this similar/same issue:

viewtopic.php?t=53441

Someone is calling this guy Jimmy the Volvo Whisperer. I wish he could whisper me some solutions.
His whispers cost $150 an hour, and are worth 2x that.

He is in the trade, so it is a privilege to have him here on our Board offering advice at the extreme level of one who has probably serviced 500x more cars than any of us.

. We are careful not to abuse that privilege.
Empty Nester
A Captain in a Sea of Estrogen
1999-V70-T5M56 2005-V70-M56 1999-S70 VW T4 BMW
Link to Maintenance record thread
Link To Volvo Glossary

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post