IPD sale XeMODeX - Experts in Volvo Electronics Free shipping all USA - Experts in Brakes
Did you know? 🤔
Logged in users can get email notification of topic replies Log in or register (free).
Amazon Link Buy your stuff using this and it helps MVS!

XC90 V8 Intermittent fuel pressure cutout (kinked fuel pump line) Topic is solved

Help, Advice, Owners' Discussion and DIY Tutorials on Volvo XC90s. The XC90 proved to be very popular, and very good for Volvo's sales numbers, since its introduction in model year 2003 (North America).
Post Reply
User avatar
abscate
MVS Moderator
Posts: 19995
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:54 pm
Year and Model: 99T5 ,99S70,2005V70
Location: NYC, ALBANY NY
Has thanked: 272 times
Been thanked: 849 times
Trinidad & Tobago
abscate

Re: XC90 V8 Intermittent fuel pressure cutout

Post by abscate » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:14 am

Awarded to shockwave for diligent, persistent, and informational troubleshooting, this 20 Day of March in the year of our Swede 2018
IMG_2029.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
These users thanked the author abscate for the post:
SHOCKWAVE
Empty Nester
A Captain in a Sea of Estrogen
1999-V70-T5M56 2005-V70-M56 1999-S70 VW T4 BMW
Link to Maintenance record thread
Link To Volvo Glossary

User avatar
SHOCKWAVE
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:23 pm
Year and Model: 2007 XC90V8S
Location: IRVINE, CA
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 4 times
United States of America
SHOCKWAVE

This could get interesting...

Post by SHOCKWAVE » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:17 am

Finally got the car into Volvo on THURSDAY last week. Been wrestling with my BMW in the meantime (fuel pump, axles, brakes, vac leaks, oil leaks, etc. etc.). 3 MO baby had a trip to the ER this weekend as well. Turned out to be her trying to breath in a funny way, so she's all good.

At any rate, Volvo seemed to be dragging their feet especially since I told them about the ill discovery of the FUEL PUMP KINK. Got a call on Saturday saying they needed a Volvo specialist to look at it on Monday- WHOAAA, WHAT? :o :o :o

So, I FINALLY get calls/texts today asking about the fuel pressure sensor late this afternoon. I asked if they looked at the fuel pump, and I got a somber yes and that's it. :? :? :? No mention of that being the issue. Then, the service rep asks what fuel pressure sensor was installed...I sent the info and he said he'd get back to me tomorrow. Majority of this was by text.

So it got me thinking that I have the wrong PN for the FPS. Bottom line is I ordered the FPS from FCPEURO who has the turbos and V8 (and I6) pressure sensor PN's swapped. :x Most other sites and VIDA back this statement up. 31272732 = V8; 31272730 = turbo. Both should be seeing 480 kpa at idle. Maybe the software handles them differently. The V8 voltage specification is not in VIDA (that I can find), but the turbos (I just used a sample VIN) has the specification shown in the screenshot. I get a good signal and VIDA outputs 480 kpa. It should go haywire immediately if the signal scale is off due to a sensor that is calibrated differently. My symptoms were present before I swapped out the FPS, so it should be a non-starter.

I hope they don't use this to skate the FUEL PUMP KINK, but by the looks of it, that may happen.

I guess we'll see tomorrow!


Screenshot reference (FPS APPLICATIONS)
https://www.volvopartswebstore.com/prod ... gJzofD_BwE
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
These users thanked the author SHOCKWAVE for the post:
matthew1
2007 XC90 V8 SPORT 151K

User avatar
abscate
MVS Moderator
Posts: 19995
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:54 pm
Year and Model: 99T5 ,99S70,2005V70
Location: NYC, ALBANY NY
Has thanked: 272 times
Been thanked: 849 times
Trinidad & Tobago
abscate

Re: XC90 V8 Intermittent fuel pressure cutout

Post by abscate » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:28 am

Ill flash this over to Jason at FCP for immediate attention.

Indeed, a thickening plot.

Glad Baby is ok - thats a terrifying experience but it does but fixing cars in perspective quickly.
These users thanked the author abscate for the post (total 2):
SHOCKWAVEmatthew1
Empty Nester
A Captain in a Sea of Estrogen
1999-V70-T5M56 2005-V70-M56 1999-S70 VW T4 BMW
Link to Maintenance record thread
Link To Volvo Glossary

User avatar
SHOCKWAVE
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:23 pm
Year and Model: 2007 XC90V8S
Location: IRVINE, CA
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 4 times
United States of America
SHOCKWAVE

FUEL PUMP SCHEMATIC

Post by SHOCKWAVE » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:36 am

Thanks abscate. I'll follow up with FCP EURO.

I guess this is just an FYI, because if any component fails in the fuel pump assembly, the whole unit has to be replaced (or diy fixed). I don't know what the piece is at the bottom of the schematic (in red). Descriptions are taken from VIDA.

I'd still like to see what the venturi looks like inside, so if I ever get my hands on a failed pump, I'll cut it in half to see how it works. I know it creates a dP where the ejector pump only has to overcome the last portion of pressure head to get it back to the reservoir ( similar to sucking on a tube to start a siphon).

Also, the fuel tank is plastic so magnets aren't going to be effective at "trapping" debris. At least on this model. I know some have metal but I don't know the applications at this point.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
2007 XC90 V8 SPORT 151K

User avatar
ggleavitt
Posts: 372
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:33 pm
Year and Model: XC90 05-2.5T, 08-V8S
Location: Seattle
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 56 times
United States of America
ggleavitt

Re: XC90 V8 Intermittent fuel pressure cutout

Post by ggleavitt » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:55 am

So I'm clear, is initial issue fully resolved or not?

No more cutouts, no more symptoms, you took the car into the dealer simply to close the loop after resolution?
2005 2.5T AWD-198k
2008 V8 AWD Sport-129k

User avatar
SHOCKWAVE
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:23 pm
Year and Model: 2007 XC90V8S
Location: IRVINE, CA
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 4 times
United States of America
SHOCKWAVE

Answers to ggleavitt

Post by SHOCKWAVE » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:59 am

Not resolved, I took into Volvo to see if they will cover their work. It's been 5 days, so I think they're looking for a way out...I don't know why. I even told them if they covered just the pump under warranty, I would do the work and show them the kinked pump. They pretty much ignored that...

If Volvo had not put the pump in, this would have been resolved as I would have just replaced/fixed it (e.g.- double end barb).

Answers to questions from ggleavitt:

This kinked hose is on the second fuel pump?
CORRECT, maybe 16 inches from the reservoir. Looks to be right about the area of the middle of the tank.
Any record of fuel system warranty work done by a dealer to address symptoms BEFORE the first pump replacement by the Indy?
No, the PO said they could maybe track down the indy, but they didn't remember the shop off hand
Listed historical DTC/error (besides the TCM-) was just for fuel pump performance/pressure?
CORRECT
The issue occurred with all levels of fuel in the tank?
CORRECT, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 7/8
Was full throttle or were a number of full throttle cycles associated with triggering the occurrence of the failure?
No, drove hard for short trips with no occurrences. Even drove in selected gear (2nd, I believe) for 5 minutes @ 3k rpm. Occurrs approximately at 20 minutes (14 miles) of driving. I tried increasing throttle at the end of some of these trips which would induce the issue.
I had it "kick" twice when gunning it close to home. That was after/during 20 min drives. There's more to that scenario, but that's just the engine having difficulty with an intermittent fuel pressure.
Was there anything else that can be considered consistent with how this scenario occurs?
See above.

My theory is that once the reservoir empties and cannot be filled at a sufficient rate, the pump starts choking. I think some fuel was getting pulled in, but clearly not enough to keep up with demand. Also, shutting the car off may cause the pressures in the hoses to change allowing the left hand side head pressure to push some fuel over- theoretically. That's why shutting it off and starting would get some fuel back. My remedy of filling the car when it occurred obviously gets some fuel into the reservoir although the fill spout entry into the tank didn't look directly over the reservoir. I could be wrong on that though. If I have to replace the pump myself, I'll take a closer look.
2007 XC90 V8 SPORT 151K

User avatar
ggleavitt
Posts: 372
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:33 pm
Year and Model: XC90 05-2.5T, 08-V8S
Location: Seattle
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 56 times
United States of America
ggleavitt

Re: XC90 V8 Intermittent fuel pressure cutout

Post by ggleavitt » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:39 pm

The initial complaint which drove the first pump replacement is more or less the same as what you're still experiencing? Is there any way to get this information from the original owner?

Since pretty much every variable in the functional path (less the ECM and CEM) has already been replaced, leads me back to the initial problem which drove the first pump replacement (which in turn appears to have resulted in an incorrect pickup hose installation at least once, maybe even twice). But the problem still persists even after that's remedied.

I'm stuck on the chicken/egg nature of this problem, in my head it's some sort of signal feedback loop gone awry, question is who starts it? I wish there was an easy way to pop in a new ECM and see what happens, at least get that out of the way as a potential root cause.

And a suggestion from me while the car is with the dealer, please see if you can press them for a review of SW loads and if/when the ECM software was ever upgraded (for no other reason than to have as additional reference point). There will be a record of this somewhere in Volvo, should be easy enough to look it up.

I'm not fully buying the sender side pickup hose kink as the root cause, but there's not much for me to challenge since there's so little data on the pump assembly itself. That the issue is presented the same on all tank levels is suspicious to me as is the relatively consistent 20 minute duration before failure (driving style notwithstanding it appears).

Certainly don't want to add churn to your problem, just trying to get some additional clarity since much of what you thought was wrong has already been replaced/remedied and it appears that the problem persists.
2005 2.5T AWD-198k
2008 V8 AWD Sport-129k

User avatar
SHOCKWAVE
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:23 pm
Year and Model: 2007 XC90V8S
Location: IRVINE, CA
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 4 times
United States of America
SHOCKWAVE

FUEL PUMP- NOT REPLACED...oh VOLVO! What are you doing...?

Post by SHOCKWAVE » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:31 pm

FUEL PUMP HAS NOT BEEN REPLACED FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND. They said they looked at it but are looking into the pressure sensor.

-PO isn't too savvy with cars and I don't think I can easily get more info. Each time I contacted them, they became more and more short with me. They said both trips to the shop were for the same reason. My guess is the original FP gave out at 150k miles.

-The primary issue may be different with the PO. They noted they had complete failure on the freeway and towed it in. I never had that. I towed it once because it was SoCal rush hour and I was miles from a gas station. Started fine getting on/off the tow truck.

-Not sure why the first installation went awry. They did punt to Volvo. It is more than obvious there is a major kink in the fuel delivery line on this second installation by Volvo... You saw those pictures of the kink? Holding the tube straight there is a significant bend/reduction in area. Moving it slightly in the direction of the kink results in almost a completely pinched hose due to the kink. I put it back to together as is to have Volvo fix their work. That is where it stands.

-I mentioned to Volvo to look at the SW

-I don't know why they are looking at electrical unless they replaced the pump/hose and are still having difficulty with fuel delivery. They will not be forthcoming if they replaced it yet...
"I'm not fully buying the sender side pickup hose kink as the root cause" If that delivery gets interrupted (kink), there's nothing to replenish the pump reservoir and the delivery pump will starve. Note that if the car is left running during a fuel delivery/pressure issue, the fuel pressure gets progressively worse up to the point it completely chokes and dies.

-Electrical checks carried out a month ago by (1) abscate and myself and (2) an independent shop showed no electrical issues. abscate and the indy said there has to be a blockage in the pump. I concur and found the kink. I was extremely deliberate in pulling the pump out so as not to cause any damage during my initial inspection of the pump. It pulled through with little to no resistance.

Notwithstanding, I do appreciate a look from a different point of view...If there is an ECM/CEM issue, it is exactly the same every time causing a fuel pressure issue and there are no other symptoms. That doesn't seem probable, but who knows with computers. The system seems to be operating as it should (see page 3 of this post). Fuel pressure drops (as shown by the FPS), ECM fuel pressure drops almost identically (uses the FPS to get this value), pump duty cycle is increased to increase fuel pressure. It then catches more fuel and pressure goes up but goes too high because the pump duty is too high. I imagine some air is getting in there at this point causing more havoc on pressure.

There's two scenarios and Volvo was up front with this:

(1) Pay for the inspection to find out the issue
(1a) If it is something else, I pay the inspection and decide what to do at that point
(2) If the pump and/or installation is found to be the cause, they will replace it under warranty and not charge me

Had this pump not been replaced by Volvo, I would have just replaced it and we'd be done (I think/hope...)

It's afternoon and they still haven't called which leads me to believe they are still hunting for something else.
2007 XC90 V8 SPORT 151K

User avatar
ggleavitt
Posts: 372
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:33 pm
Year and Model: XC90 05-2.5T, 08-V8S
Location: Seattle
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 56 times
United States of America
ggleavitt

Re: XC90 V8 Intermittent fuel pressure cutout

Post by ggleavitt » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:48 pm

I thought it was stated in the beginning of the post that the fuel pump had been replaced, at least once (6/6/17). Apologies if I mis-read your first couple of posts, much of what I had suggested was based on omitting the pump from the get-go.

Then you really don't know what's been done to the car other than what you yourself did (which now apparently does not include first replacing the pump when fuel pressure performance errors were being reported- ECM P008900).

Seems then as if a pump replacement might indeed be in order before proceeding further.

My comment as to the kink not being the major cause still stands as an opinion, in that it takes a somewhat replicable amount of time before the car dies and you've suggested on a couple of occasions that tank level and driving style do not appreciably change the dynamics of the failure. This is a little surprising for the gas sucking V8 and to me it's perhaps more suggestive of a component thermal issue as a possible cause rather than just moving a certain amount of fuel volume then having it die.

Be interesting to see how this all turns out.
2005 2.5T AWD-198k
2008 V8 AWD Sport-129k

User avatar
SHOCKWAVE
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:23 pm
Year and Model: 2007 XC90V8S
Location: IRVINE, CA
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 4 times
United States of America
SHOCKWAVE

Thread is getting too long...

Post by SHOCKWAVE » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:33 pm

I meant replacement by Volvo since I took it in...I'll wait til this is resolved before posting again to avoid adding confusion (unless I need SPECIFIC help). Fuel pump was omitted by everyone as it had been replaced and assumed good- it wasn't

Timeline:

PO (previous owner-2nd owner, 120k to 150k, no records of anything done by 1st owner (0k -120k))-
-Unknown Indy Replaced FP in March '17 (report was of car dying on freeway)
-Took into Volvo June '17 (replaced FP and Fuel Filter). Indy's insurance paid for most of this. I don't know why they punted to Volvo to do a second replacement.
PO SUMMARY: Two fuel pumps and one fuel filter installed

ME (shockwave)-
-Bought in NOV '17 (not knowing about fuel issue)
-Cutting out started after a few days of driving
-Replaced Fuel Filter, Spark Plugs, Air Filter, Fuel Pressure Sensor
-Continued to have issue sporadically
-Replaced PEM
-Still had pressure issue/driveability
-Electrical diagnosis with abscate
-Took into Indy for inspection- They indicated everything looked good except for there's probably something in the tank causing the loss of pressure
-I opened up fuel tank to inspect pump- found kink
-Took into Volvo on Thursday hoping for a warranty replacement
-Who knows what they are doing at this point...I've been trying to let it play out...
2007 XC90 V8 SPORT 151K

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post