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No start. 1992, 245, B230F, LH 2.4, ODO @ 317k km.

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sergitin32
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Year and Model: 1989 240 DL
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sergitin32

No start. 1992, 245, B230F, LH 2.4, ODO @ 317k km.

Post by sergitin32 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:24 am

Recently acquired this Volvo thinking it was a good project and because the body looks in great conditions and has a bunch of pluses like ABS, Air Cond (not working), Airbags, heated seats etc. It is an Auto transmission. The ODO is working and about to hit the 317000 km.
When I bought it it was having issues starting and it would stall sometimes randomly in traffic.
I got to pull codes and it seemed the Coolant Temperature Sensor was the culprit. SO I purchased a new sensor and there it goes, codes are clean, the car would start cold or warm and never stall. I was in heaven. In the meanwhile installed a brand new SS exhaust from IPD. New radio and four alpine speakers from the junkyard, small Tachometer and outside temp thermometer. Everything was working well, although while installing the radio I might have mess with the wrong cable and just from the blue, I heard a loud hissing like something was losing compressed air somewhere to the right of the car I thought of the A/C but it stopped and gave it no more thoughts. I happened to try getting the 12v for the light in the Tach and temp gauge from a thick dark beige or light brown wire behind the dashboard but it wasn't the right wire since it had 12 volts even with the switch off. So took them off but somehow I believe that wire might have been damaged by the deep splice through this thicker than the wire that should have been inside those piggy bag connectors. So that's is one suspect of sorts. Other than that I went later just to the rheostat for the dashboard lights and piggyback them there, just beside in the correct "brown".

Anyways, days later the car has been running well except for one minimal flaw, that's when it starts the battery light and the sign with the exclamation mark within a circle light comes on until you give it some gas as soon as RPMs go higher than idle these two lights turn off and won't show again until you start the car next time, I thought from this: maybe the exciting wire to the alternator is not getting enough juice, maybe that beige cable has something to do with it? Maybe the belts are not tight enough? But didn't act on it cuz it was working "fine" after the lights were off. I did read voltage at battery terminals before and after giving it some gas: Before there was no juice coming from the alternator, so @ cold idling I was reading pretty much battery voltage, but once you did increase RPMs for a second and let it idle the multimeter read 13.9 volts or so, so it was OK.

Until it didn't start. One morning going to take the kids to school and it wouldn't start, cranks well enough, the battery has hold charge and even today hold 12.15 volts after a lot of cranking, but the car is a no start. Luckly for the other 240 I could go on with my day.

First thing I noticed, the main fuel pump humming is not happening,
even weirder thing, there are no codes absolutely in the diagnosis unit. I try to pull even a 1-1-1 but nothing comes off there nor plug 2 for FI or plug 6 for ignition.

I also notice the ignition coil was getting quite hot while cranking trying to start the car, I am not sure if that's OK.

So far what I have done: replace coil for a moment just to see if anything changes, nothing> no start
gave it a jumping with the other Volvo 240 running: nothing.
Tried to pull codes with the car running so the voltage was very good just in case, nothing came off the diagnosis unit.

Also, another weird thing is the car had (supposedly) day running lights, but the light switch for high and low beams was not switching... I am not sure if 1992 had this feature, but once I was done with the radio and work on the dashboard wiring these "day running" were not working so I have to use the round manual switch to turn them on, which I don't mind since its a habit from my 1989 sedan, but now the high and low beams work nicely... I did remove a few redundant wiring for horns and amplifier from the engine bay as well...

Plans, to check for fuel need using starting fluid as a basic diagnostic tool then try checking the fuel pump function, check for compression, check the spark plugs, the last owner was sincere enough to confess the radiator failed and he had to change the head gasket and put a new radiator in.

The main thing puzzling me is the diagnosis unit not working properly. I tried to look for other threads but found none with this issue, well found one, but it was the battery and this is not my case.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

sergitin32
Posts: 162
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Year and Model: 1989 240 DL
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sergitin32

Re: NO START. 1992, 245, B230F, LH 2.4, ODO @ 317k km.

Post by sergitin32 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:15 am

OK, hello again, I finally got time to work on the car with an assistant brother to help me out and have been reading info about this topic to do so. This is what we did today so far:

Jumped fuse #6 to fuse #4 both sides with "lead" off. Left side main fuel pump ran clearly, then the right side of #4 the tank pump was running no so clearly, but by taking the cap off the tank you could hear a humming coming from within.

So pumps and wiring to them are good to go. Could not try output since I am working at my underground and fuel spill would be the last thing I want there. But still, the pumps are humming and that's enough for me to be happy. Does any one know at engine bay where can I check for main pump pressure and output?

Next, I jumped the socket for the relay from pin 3 (per Haynes manual) or position 30 for what reads in the relay itself, this is the thick RED wire with 12Volts coming from fuse #6 in these cars but I believe it goes through the blade 25 amps fuse in my '89. Jumping this 12Volts into the YELLOW/RED position 5 as per Haynes and "87/2" written in the relay body and you could also hear both pumps working simultaneously, the one in the tank through fuse #4 (back in place) and the main pressure pump off the other side of this fuse, meaning if fuse 4 goes bad only the tank pump would stop working.

So here we know there is continuity from the relay to both pumps. So far so good.

Then we take a good look at the Haynes diagram for the relay and decided to try it out:

So we put 12Volts in position 3 (30) and ground position 4 (86/1) and check the voltage in relation to the ground in pin 1 (87/1) that turn out OK (12V). Then we put 12V power to pins 3 (30) and 6 (85) simulating the first half of the relay was closed and the ECU giving a low pulse by grounding pin number 2 (86/2) and measuring output in pin number 5 (87/2) which feeds the YELLOW/RED wire that we previously check for continuity to the pumps. 12V were present, so this means the relay is working according to its parameters.

We also checked and found continuity between pins 6 (85) and 1 (87/1) both with thick BLACK/RED wires.

So if everything is working from the relay on, the ECU is the culprit in this case. So the circuitry managing the fuel relay is not good, I suppose.

We went a little further and tried checking voltage for the ECU at pin 4 (+) and 17 (ground) at its socket and it was fine, so the ECU is getting power from the same RED thick wire coming through fuse #6. Then we checked the same at EZK just in case and that was different... Every time we plug/unplugged these we disconnected the battery being careful avoiding voltage spikes, etc.

So EZK was supposed to take 12 Volts from the same red wire through fuse #6 and when the ignition switch is off it does show 12 Volts testing pins 5 (+) and 20 (ground), or whatever the battery has left by then, in our case 11.6. But of course, been unplugged to measure the voltage at socket we were only checking for juice input into EZK, but when checking with the ignition switch on position II the fuel pump relay would start buzzing pretty loud and the voltage at the EZK socket at those same pins would drop to 6.5 Volts. Anybody has an idea if we were doing this wrong or this is just logical because of the circuitry inside the EZK?

We left it at that and moved forward, hoping something would come from replies here or there.

Last we plugged the relay back and checked for voltages in the signal to the electromagnet inside the main fuel relay.

Testing pin 3 (30) to pin 4 (from ECU) and while the ignition switch was off there was 12V difference in this points, then while the switch was in position II the voltage signal dropped to 3.2V, this was kinda awkward we thought.

We also checked voltage from pin 3 (30) to pin 6 (85) but now looking at the diagram I think this was wrong or I wrote down the wrong pins. Not so sure. in any case, as per my notes, it claims there was zero volts with the ignition switch off and 2V in position II.

If anyone can give me any ideas on what can be done I would greatly appreciate so.

I do have another sedan just parked beside this car with everything working. Is there any risk in exchanging components from one to the other in order to discard whats wrong and what not? The car I am working now has a 561 ECU been 1992, then my 1989 sedan has a 951. Is it safe and sound to exchange these units in order to double check whats right or wrong?

I also mentioned in my first post, the diagnosis unit is not working with either position 2 or 6 for pulling codes from ECU or EZK. It stays there with the light on in position 2 and off in 6, no codes at all.
I will also try putting the battery from the other car in this one since I believe this battery is kinda soft. See if that helps.

Thanks for any advice you can come with.

Sergitin32.

sergitin32
Posts: 162
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:36 am
Year and Model: 1989 240 DL
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
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sergitin32

Re: NO START. 1992, 245, B230F, LH 2.4, ODO @ 317k km.

Post by sergitin32 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:02 am

bump.
still, I bought a new ECU just to give it a try and it did not make a difference. plug the same ecu to my 1989 and it worked fine, so the ecu is not the problem. still, since I got a 951 I could still consider it an upgrade in the future if I find out whats wrong and decide to keep this car.
The fuel pumps are still not running, even when we testes everything from the relay back and even try my 1989 relay in there, they won't go. And I am sure the codes are still not working for the self-diagnosis of ECU and ICU.
Wondering if there is some fault in the computer harness towards the relay?

We also noticed there is no spark jumping from the coil. If that gives us some trail. Even more intriguing I think.

Anyone care to jump in?

sergitin32
Posts: 162
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:36 am
Year and Model: 1989 240 DL
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
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sergitin32

Re: NO START. 1992, 245, B230F, LH 2.4, ODO @ 317k km.

Post by sergitin32 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:32 pm

bump...
anybody with a wild idea of a non-start and a non-working diagnostic system?

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93Regina
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93Regina

Re: NO START. 1992, 245, B230F, LH 2.4, ODO @ 317k km.

Post by 93Regina » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:39 pm

sergitin32 wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:32 pm
no spark jumping from the coil.
Long winded prose, I don't read, but I might scan, and move on...giving specifics is most helpful.

Timing belt...or dowel pin holdling cam gear
Radio suppressor relay
Ignition module

sergitin32
Posts: 162
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:36 am
Year and Model: 1989 240 DL
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 2 times
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sergitin32

Re: NO START. 1992, 245, B230F, LH 2.4, ODO @ 317k km.

Post by sergitin32 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:48 pm

Thanx. I was thinking the same. Will redo the thread with less prose.
Appreciate the input.

sergitin32
Posts: 162
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:36 am
Year and Model: 1989 240 DL
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
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sergitin32

Re: NO START. 1992, 245, B230F, LH 2.4, ODO @ 317k km.

Post by sergitin32 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:43 pm

Simplified version:
The car was stalling and hard to start sometimes, hardest when warm.
Check Engine light was on.
Pulled codes from and got:
1-2-3: Signal missing to/from coolant temp. sensor. >>> Changed the CTS and it started and idled and went alright for a week or so. There were other codes but when tried codes again after this fix they were: 1-1-1 in ECU and EZK. So it was all good and I was happy to work on it for improvements/upgrades:

The Power-Stage was dangling loose so I attached to where it goes for cooling with the car body. Also attached the wiring correctly.

Clean fuse panel and replaced all fuses by brass ones.

SS IPD exhaust with only one muffler.

Installed small tachometer and exterior temp gauge (no sensor yet) at the spots beside the radio.

New CD player with 4 Alpine speakers. Some wiring work back there for the player and gauges lights etc. Somehow after moving wiring back there, the "daylights" setup mentioned by the PO (but high beams switch wouldn't work) went to regular setup (as I need to turn them on by hand with the light switch but the low and high beam switch works fine)

Fixed the horn wiring (PO did some silly wiring for this, I just plug back the OEM wires).

Tried diagnosing the windshield wipers and somehow the rear wiper started acting up, like not stopping and things like that.

One morning this happened and I simply disconnected every cable from the rear wiper's motor, just so I could start the car and go. Except it did not start.
Tried the codes and the codes are not coming out, there is a shallow glow for the ECU and continuos shine for the EZK or vice-versa. Still, there are no codes coming out.
Car won't start. Fuel pump won't hum when the switch is in position 2.
Not super positive but I recall that coil was not giving spark and I felt it REALLy hot at some point, comparing it to my 1989 sedan regularly working the coil is just warm.

Found:

Fuse 6 and 4 have juice.
Main fuel relay works just fine. Put the good one in from the other car and still no luck.
There is juice getting to the ECU. By following Bentleys diagram. Did not check for ground thou :(
Tried new ECU from eBay (it worked fine in my 1989 sedan) XXX 951. Did not start this car. Pump didn't hum either.
Checked for juice everywhere around the main relay and also the wiring to the pumps and when jumped the relay both pumps would hum.

The timing belt is turning fine. Before it died I did check for idle at 850rpm and timing at 12*.

I have been reading about crank position sensor could do something like this. I have been wondering if the new Coolant Temp Sensor could be bad from the factory? It was an OEM Bosch from FCP.

Tested battery and it is all good.

The alternator was charging with 13.9 but somehow it needed a little gas from idle when just started to make the battery charge light turn off.

Mainly: Not starting, ECU and EZK codes not functioning, main fuel pump not humming, no spark,.

My main suspect is some ground cable not working.
CPS
CTS
Power Stage- EZK?

Other than that I am just feeling sick to look at it since it's in really good shape and summer is almost here and I wanted to go camping etc...

Thanks for any help.

Sergio.

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93Regina
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93Regina

Re: NO START. 1992, 245, B230F, LH 2.4, ODO @ 317k km.

Post by 93Regina » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:41 pm

>The car was stalling and hard to start sometimes, hardest when warm.

Drop in fuel pressure...fuel pressure test...so simple...disconnect at FPR the return line to tank...install rubber hose at FPR...insert hose into bottle...run pumps. No fuel...guess what...At your own risk...

>Installed small tachometer

So, does tach's needle move when cranking? Or do digits appear?

>Fuel pump won't hum when the switch is in position 2.

LH 2.4 had an issue with these....But, this is controlled via relay...relay bad, maybe. Voltage check at fuel pump fuses will inform if fuel pumps have power.

Download this LH 2.4 manual

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93Regina
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Re: NO START. 1992, 245, B230F, LH 2.4, ODO @ 317k km.

Post by 93Regina » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:46 pm


sergitin32
Posts: 162
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:36 am
Year and Model: 1989 240 DL
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 2 times
Cuba
sergitin32

Re: NO START. 1992, 245, B230F, LH 2.4, ODO @ 317k km.

Post by sergitin32 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:58 pm

Sorry those links won't work, they are both 404 error.

I think I do have the green books with the 2,4 LH diagram here somewhere. I will check it out.
The link with ECU and AMM not sure about.

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