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2001 XC70 ECM Ignition Ground failure P0301 P1367 Topic is solved

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jcb
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Re: About To Send ECM Out For Repair - Need Advice Quickly !

Post by jcb »

Now that above post came thru, this is my response to RickHaleParker :

I agree with everything you said in your last two posts as to who had ultimate responsibility for the ECM repair. When I received that initial "bad news" call from X that there was an additional charge, I immediately pointed out that I had gone thru FCP and I would be calling them about any additional cost. That being said, it was not out of line that I received the first call from X. In fact, the last line of my detailed description of my testing was for them to give me a call if there were any questions as to what I found or anything needing clarification. The problem was that this call should have come from a technician who could describe the problem, rather than from a sales rep who may have been given limited info or possibly not understood what was being said. However, I was told that a tech would give me a call, which seemed reasonable to keep things moving. After talking to the tech I felt confident they would see the problem and take care of it. All of this happened in fairly short order, so I saw no reason to contact FCP during this period unless things turned south.


As I said, I always had it in my mind to contact FCP in the end even if things went well. I wanted to see how they saw these initial issues so that I could report back on this forum. I made that call, but in the end I'm not sure what FCP's "official position" would have been. Hopefully, my conversation with their rep will, if nothing else, prompt some changes in their product description to cover some of these "what if " situations.


Thanks for your thoughts !


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Re: About To Send ECM Out For Repair - Need Advice Quickly !

Post by RickHaleParker »

Something does not add up, XeMODeX does not have limited testing ability, they remanufacture these units. Remanufactured control modules is the core of XeMODeX's operation.
1998 C70, B5234T3, 16T, AW50-42, Bosch Motronic 4.4, Special Edition package.
2003 S40, B4204T3, 14T twin scroll AW55-50/51SN, Siemens EMS 2000.
2004 S60R, B8444S TF80 AWD.
2005 XC90 T6 Executive, B6294T, 4T65 AWD, Bosch Motronic 7.0.
jcb
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Re: About To Send ECM Out For Repair - Need Advice Quickly !

Post by jcb »

I think your right about their capabilities, and this is where I believe the difference shows up between X's and FCP's description of their respective R&R programs. I mentioned previously that when I asked the tech why they hadn't detected a pulsed signal to #1 cyl coil pack, he said that they couldn't test for that, nor for pulsed signals to the injectors. He pretty much said that was because of the immobilizer. So without the CEM, their testing appears to be limited. I did not send the CEM because FCP's description said to send it if you have code "ECM-720A or any no start condition". I didn't have that code and the car started fine ( just didn't run well on 4 cylinders ! ). If you look at X's R&R service, they will accept your ECM for R&R ONLY IF YOU HAVE one of 4 or 5 specific codes. If you don't, they direct you to the data transfer to a re-manufactured unit service that is $250 higher.


So here is some some GOOD NEWS : When I just went to FCP's website to check for the code they specified, I saw where they have added the following to the opening paragraph of their product description :


During checkout you will be charged for the basic repair service, should your unit require additional repair Xemodex will contact you prior to proceeding. - This price is for a regular repair service. Xemodex has divided the repair in to two different repair levels, Basic Level 1 and Advanced Level 2. - Should the unit require additional repair Xemodex will contact you prior to proceeding to collect additional funds


I see this as a positive step in giving a better understanding of what is being offered. Hopefully this is only the first step, because it obviously opens up questions as to what is considered Basic Level 1 vs. Advanced Level 2. These levels are not mentioned on X's website, and even if they were, I would think FCP needs to define them in their write-up since they are selling the product. Note that the rest of FCPs description as of now remains unchanged. Without knowing what these two levels are, some questions would be:


- Are the two levels mentioned the same as the R&R and Data Transfer descriptions noted on X's website ? With the same qualifying requirements ?


- Does sending in your CEM result on more thorough testing ? Note the different requirements in my opening paragraph as to whether it is required to send it in. If you don't send it in because it's not mandated, is the initial testing limited (assuming they even do it depending on your written symptoms) and you are therefore more likely to find yourself in Level 2 ?


- If you need Level 2 and decide to do it, who do you directly pay - X or FCP ? If X, is there still the FCP lifetime warranty ? If you opt out and want it returned un-repaired, what happens ? Are there additional charges - a testing fee and/or return shipping fee ? If so. does FCP deduct this from your refund ?


I could go on with questions, but when you think about it, they are only the result of uncertainty as to whether FCP is offering a different or enhanced R&R service compared to X's standard R&R.


Just one final note on whether or not to send in the CEM. There is a video on FCP's site showing how to do it. While doable, I would say it's not for the "faint of heart". I would suspect that many would likely go with the data transfer option right from the start (if that's what Level 2 is) rather than investing the time or have the potential risks associated with pulling it.


Again, I think FCP should be commended for starting to clear up some of the "what ifs". While I appreciate that they can't cover every possibility, there are still some obvious gaps that need to be clarified.


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Re: About To Send ECM Out For Repair - Need Advice Quickly !

Post by mrbrian200 »

Sounds to me like the transistor was going bad. These can act intermittent when they fail. So X checked it again after you talked to them and maybe heated, cooled, or wiggled it. Who knows. Transistor junction breakdown or an open circuit can sometimes be triggered by a change in temperature if it's due to a physical defect.
I don't think this is something to get upset with X or FCP about. Finding/diagnosing board level issues can get pretty crazy complex. And once in awhile you'll run into some funky problem you've never seen before or is very rare.
Personally I'd be happy they figured it out the car fixed without having to go buy a new ECU from a dealer.
40-50 years ago the level of technology inside that little ECU box would literally have been considered rocket science you know.
At some point as outfits like X grow and become established they often learn to shy away from direct end user contact and restrict their sales and contact to experienced trained techs (who tend to be more forgiving with that one in a thousand strange defect which isn't necessarily easy to catch or fix). The current arrangement with FCP may well end up being 'temporary'.
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Re: About To Send ECM Out For Repair - Need Advice Quickly !

Post by precopster »

precopster wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:38 pm Do you have a Dice, Windows laptop and internet connection or a tethered connection to 3G/4G through a mobile?

If so a used ECM can be cloned by one of MVS's online gurus without the waiting time and inconvenience of downtime.

I just did this recently on my own 2002 XC70. It took 45mins and a small fee.

Usually most of these repair services will do exactly that; clone another ECU, put it back in your case and tell you they repaired your own board. :D
Perhaps the next ECM victim will purchase a Dice and get it done as above; easy, inexpensive and without waiting time :D
Current cars:2002 XC70, 2006 Ssangyong Rodius (Stavic), 2006 XC90 2.5T, VW Transporter 2.5TDI

www.precisioncarmodules.com.
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Re: About To Send ECM Out For Repair - Need Advice Quickly !

Post by jcb »

In the order received, my first response is to mrbrian200 - the second will be to precopster but that may take a separate post as it's getting late.



My first question is to ask you if you work for either company ? Just kidding !!! It's obvious that you know more about the guts of an ECM than I do. However, it also seems you may not have gone thru the early troubleshooting process that led me to be confident that not only was the ECM at fault, but specifically it was showing a ground on the output signal (pin A-1) to #1 cyl coil pack. It was there every time I checked for it, so it wasn't intermittent as you suggest. This was written in a fairly detailed symptom and troubleshooting write-up that I sent to X. Admittedly, I did not say it was there with the ignition both off or on, but I figured that they would see no pulses right away when they tested it. I detailed why I think they missed it in a previous post. Without the immobilizer bypassed they can't test for pulses, so when all five cyls showed an output with the ignition on (a solid ground) they assumed all was OK and looked no further until I questioned them. So I'll ask you who knows more about such things than I, could they have tested for pulses without the CEM or somehow bypassed the immobilizer ? Should they have looked deeper? (Well it reminds me of a similar situation I had to confront a few years ago. So as not to get off topic, I will tell you about that at the end of this post for those interested).


But you need to know, it is not the above that gives me concern. I know that electronic device troubleshooting is likely elusive at times. My biggest concern is the incongruity between what the two outfits are offering in their descriptions, as well as not clarifying those "what if" situations that will inevitably arise. I'm not going to go over these for the "umteenth time".(I know "umteenth" is probably not a word) The bottom line is that there needs to be a more coherent of what is being proposed that reflects the agreement between the two parties ( at least to the extent that the consumer is not confused and knows what to expect ). To their credit, FCP has recognized this and has taken the first step toward this end - that's good thing.


You can tune out here, because this is off topic ? Should they have looked deeper ? Well, 7-8 years ago my brother drove his Ford Escort limping and missing into the local dealership. Next day, they said repairs would be $2,800. They had to replace the components that controlled the hydraulic valve timing, along with all belts, idlers, etc.

I told him not to do it until we took a closer look ourselves. We were able to drive it to my garage, and in short order found a timing belt with missing teeth. It took a couple of hundred dollars to replace what was needed. Steaming, we went back to the dealer and complained to the service guy who checks you in. He said such things happen way too frequently, but the service manager ignores the complaints. Not satisfied, we talked with the tech who did the diagnosis. The young guy who was obviously factory trained, said he followed the step-by-step sequence in the manual and this is where it led based on the symptoms. It never said to remove the timing belt cover. So while I think he was being honest, you wind up scratching your head. "In the old days" you started with the basics, test for fuel and spark first, then go from there. Today, you follow a pre-planned routine (not in and of itself bad), but it tends to missing the basics of what its all about. So in the case of my ECM troubleshooting, was it simply a case of putting it thru a standard bench test, then saying all was OK, even though it took a different approach to see the ground which had been reported. I don't know the answer to that. What I do know is that all these electronic techs are well trained and much smarter than I on such things. But are even these guys lulled into a sense of complacency because of standardized testing ? Don't know the answer to that either.


Final thought - I confronted the Ford service manager as to what had happened. Apologetic ? He proceeded to ask why I thought our repair would correct the problem long term ! Then added what if we didn't replace everything that was the possible cause and it failed again, you would be back here complaining ! All I could say was Good Grief !


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Re: About To Send ECM Out For Repair - Need Advice Quickly !

Post by mrbrian200 »

I wasn't doubting your diagnosis that the ecu was at fault.
Between switching the coil packs between cylinders, tracing the wires, and verifying no spark with the inline tester I felt you had it.
You talked to X convinced them to look at the driver circuit more closely after their first check didn't reveal the problem. They found and fixed it. Considering their business model I wouldn't doubt 1 in 10 or so ECUs they receive have nothing wrong with them. I'm willing to give both parties an inch, and they rectified some confusion with regard to billing/handling.

There is something I'd like to key in from another reply (not you, JCB). In the case the fuel supply is cut, such as unplugging an injector, the plug still sparks if all else is well. The in line spark tester should indicate that a spark is present. Merely with no fuel there's nothing to ignite/burn.

I do have an idea for something that might work as a test light for the ECU circuit without having to invest in a high end DVM with scope functions. The ECU fires a coil pack by momentarily completing the ground. Connect a low current device, such as a 12V LED in a parallel circuit across the wire leading back to the ECU from the coil pack and ground. LED should be designed to draw as little current as possible, the lower the better (probably no more than 40 or 50 ma). The idea is that the current through the LED is low enough that it doesn't cause the CP to spark or heat up. When the ECU completes the ground to fire the CP there is no longer a voltage drop and the LED would go dark momentarily. It should work for injectors too. Incandescent bulbs wouldn't work for this as they would pass too much current causing the CP to spark or injector to open. Just an idea.
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Re: About To Send ECM Out For Repair - Need Advice Quickly !

Post by RickHaleParker »

The young guy who was obviously factory trained, said he followed the step-by-step sequence in the manual and this is where it led based on the symptoms. It never said to remove the timing belt cover. So while I think he was being honest, you wind up scratching your head. "In the old days" you started with the basics, test for fuel and spark first, then go from there. Today, you follow a pre-planned routine (not in and of itself bad), but it tends to missing the basics of what its all about.


That is the difference between being trained and being educated. A trained person knows what to do, that is they know a procedure, but not why. A educated person knows why and can do diagnostics. From my perspective trained technician are little more then what we use to call bolt turners or grease monkeys.
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2003 S40, B4204T3, 14T twin scroll AW55-50/51SN, Siemens EMS 2000.
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Re: About To Send ECM Out For Repair - Need Advice Quickly !

Post by RickHaleParker »

The ECU fires a coil pack by momentarily completing the ground.

A coil is fired by momentarily opening the ground to the primary, that is the ECM turns off the primary winding of the coil in order to fire the secondary and the plug. Look at a set of old fashion electromechanical ignition points, the contacts are closed except coil is firing.

Opening the ground to primary collapses the electromagnetic field of the primary. As the primary's electromagnetic field collapses, the stored energy of primary's electromagnetic field gets transferred to the secondary. The secondary discharges the energy, this energy discharge of the secondary is what creates the spark. This is an applied version of the grade school science experiment where you passed a magnet through a wire coil and created current and voltage in the coil.

If you place an LED and current limiting resistor across the leads to the coil pack. The led will blink off every time the ECM fires the coil. As long the additional LED current does not over load the ECM port and burn it out. No need to build one, a Computer Safe Auto Logic Probe cost $10.00 - $25.00 depending on features and where you source it.
1998 C70, B5234T3, 16T, AW50-42, Bosch Motronic 4.4, Special Edition package.
2003 S40, B4204T3, 14T twin scroll AW55-50/51SN, Siemens EMS 2000.
2004 S60R, B8444S TF80 AWD.
2005 XC90 T6 Executive, B6294T, 4T65 AWD, Bosch Motronic 7.0.
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Re: About To Send ECM Out For Repair - Need Advice Quickly !

Post by abscate »

Has anyone gone inside an ECU to see if these drivers are repairable? There is no way a firm is going to. Do this of course, especially since a $25 PnP and $100 doublebug clone is cheaper and faster
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