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Front LCA Rear bush by Bilstein/Febi

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dlundblad
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Re: Front LCA Rear bush by Bilstein/Febi

Post by dlundblad » Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:16 am

That WRX design is interesting. Seems much more forgiving that the P2 design.

Has anyone here tried poly bushings? I saw it mentioned on another forum, but nobody had any experience with them.

As I understand, poly is a bit stiffer, but my father and I had no choice when rebuilding the front end of his 240z. If anything on the road is sensitive to excessive vibrations, it's that thing and handling only improved. Now a brand new 1971 with fresh (non 50 year old) rubber Nissan bushings vs. something with poly may be a bit different. He has an earlier model Z that is waiting for paint now. When that is done, it'll get poly too.


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Re: Front LCA Rear bush by Bilstein/Febi

Post by Cookie-the-Swede » Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:59 am

I have swapped the poorly designed stock control arm bushings with poly. Much crisper handling. Not a harsh ride at all. And they most likely will last longer than just a couple of years like the stock ones.



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Re: Front LCA Rear bush by Bilstein/Febi

Post by mrbrian200 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:14 pm

Finally got a nice day to put the LCAs loaded with these bushes on the car. Also put the OE Volvo right hand side axle shaft back on. I determined the carrier bearing didn't have play, not being physically worn it just needed to be cleaned out/new grease. Started about 4pm, all done around 8pm.

These bushes do act like they're supposed to. They don't try to 'float down' when the wheels are off the ground. In effect they act proper like a fixed ball joint. No subframe contact noise from them while driving on bad pavement...which we have a lot of round here.
They're paired with the OE front LCA bushes that were on the car when I bought it. Had I pressed these febi bushes into that aftermarket LCA with it's front bushes I'm pretty sure I'd still have problems. The front bushes had not degraded that I can tell, but I suspect their mechanical properties while driving are all wrong and throws the whole dynamics of the mechanism all out of kilter.

Ride quality and handling over uneven/bumpy pavement is improved by leaps and bounds. Vibration and road noise on chip and seal pavement is noticeably less/quieter.
We will see how long they last. At least when new they work properly, which is more than I can say for those HD control arms.



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Re: Front LCA Rear bush by Bilstein/Febi

Post by mrbrian200 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:26 pm

Now for a little more information to chew on. When those rear bushes go bad it will drag down your highway econ by around 2-3MPG by my rough calculation. I had tweaked the front end toe settings to keep my MPG up to compensate for those bushes as they went bad over the course of winter. With the new bushes installed it was obvious while driving that the toe settings needed to be readjusted.

Method: to keep track of the toe setting I use small zip ties, one on the inner, another on the outer tie rod. The one on the outer becomes your fixed reference point. The one on the inner becomes your pointer, or adjustment reference as you turn the inner tie rod to adjust:
Markers.JPG
Markers.JPG (29.93 KiB) Viewed 650 times
On the FWD S60, parasitic drivetrain and wind drag is exceptionally low for a lux car. 1.5 miles down the country road that I'm on far enough to get a feel for it... Define a start and end point in each direction (E=Eastbound, W=West in the table). Set the cruise at 50mph before making test runs. Then get up to speed and resume cruise before the start point, reset the AVG econ at the start point. Take note of the AVG econ figure shown on the dim at the end points. Write it down after you've stopped. Proceed to the next position of toe adjustment and repeat.

With AWD and/or a SUV the peak econ is lower due to increased parasitic losses of the AWD system and/or increased wind drag. Adjusting the toe by small amounts doesn't provide quite as obvious AVG MPG peak on a shorter runs. To do this with my sister's AWD XC90 I had to increase the distance to 5 miles otherwise the numbers were too close and inconsistent to be meaningful.

Note a combination of topography and a ~20mph due east wind this afternoon are the reasons why westbound is consistently lower than eastbound.
Track.JPG
Track.JPG (53.04 KiB) Viewed 650 times
The zero point (9'oclock on the diagram) was where I had the toe set to peak MPG with torn/bad bushes.
With good bushes the setting changed notably. The difference in econ between '0' and where it peaks now (between -4 to -5 on the chart) would be the loss in econ you would expect to see with bad LCA bushes. As it was obvious that adjusting inner tie rod in the counter clockwise direction was 'correct', there was no need to experiment in the clockwise from '0' position.

Now that I've got it pretty close, in the near future I'll do a few longer runs making smaller adjustments under more ideal conditions (longer stretch of flat level pavement, no wind). I know the spot I like to use, an old 2-lane highway with light traffic that spans across across a flood plain. It's 30 miles away though.



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Re: Front LCA Rear bush by Bilstein/Febi

Post by mrbrian200 » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:42 pm

Small tip with regard to finer toe adjustments on these. The suspension is so darn good about soaking up vibration and harshness from smaller road imperfections, toe within around +/- 0.10" is difficult to gauge from merely paying attention to ride harshness/bump steer while rolling over expansion joints in the pavement. Feedback through the steering wheel feels 'confusing' to me for this purpose.

What I've figured out through trial and error/observation:

What does seem to provide consistent feedback that you can actually interpret is what I would have to term not specifcally not as bump steer, but "dip steer":

On a fairly smooth road scout for a 'dip' in the pavement, 1-2 inches deep that isn't big enough to span the width of the vehicle: One side of the vehicle remains on flat pavement, the other side rolls through the dip. **not broken pavement or a pothole**, but where a puddle would form 2-3 feet in diameter after a rain. Roll over it 70-80 mph and pay attention to whether the car feels like it wants to lean into or away from the the side that rolled through the dip. As that side momentarily loses a bit of traction, if the car feels like it wants to car leans toward the side of the dip you're slightly toe in...or vice-versa. The faster you go and more attentive you are the more precise you can get about it.

Rolling over *bumps* or cracks just doesn't produce driver feedback on these cars that's easy to interpret within a 'very close' range of toe adjustment aside from a little bit of understeer/oversteer. It just all feels like the same sofa (on wheels).



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Re: Front LCA Rear bush by Bilstein/Febi

Post by Tonyx » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:08 am

That's a great solution to fine tuning toe. I hadn't seen zip ties to mark your movements. Kudos.


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Re: Front LCA Rear bush by Bilstein/Febi

Post by oragex » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:58 am

Not willing to hijack the thread, but here's some recent findings on these control arms bushings. It's not about Febi, but may share some light on the bushings Volvo is pressing in =to these



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Re: Front LCA Rear bush by Bilstein/Febi

Post by mrbrian200 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:33 pm

Here's where things get really interesting: On ZF's webcat (set to Deutschland) they show the Boge PN for the forward bush as 88-362-A. If you set the country to USA the PN listed for this bush changes to 87-643-A. So...is there a difference in quality or materials (???) They do not show product/for the rear bush under the Boge brand, only under Lemforder.

We may never know who makes that rear bush for Volvo as the mold has "Volvo" on it. Whoever makes it is can't sell that one direct to market and the little rubber 'posts' may also be deleted on the aftermarket part.

Getting back to previous discussion pointing out Volvo's somewhat unique geometry for these style bushes, I suspect if the forward bush doesn't exhibit ideal mechanical properties it may not matter what you put at the rear (it won't last). On a 3200+ lb turbo car if suspension dynamics aren't controlled right perfect, something made of rubber stands little chance no matter how much you tinker with the 'formula'.



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Re: Front LCA Rear bush by Bilstein/Febi

Post by jonesg » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:53 am

mrbrian200 wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:16 pm
Hmm. Might part of the issue with LCA bushes not lasting very long on these vehicles be that the procedure for installing the LCAs could be damaging the bushes? Hear me out:

In most cases we disconnect the ball joint by loosening the large bolt at the bottom, then force the LCA down which I believe is the Volvo procedure. This requires that the LCA be pulled several inches below where the strut would normally limit suspension travel/lower extension.

Getting an old LCA off isn't generally the issue.

I recall from installing the (currently on vehicle) LCAs that came preloaded with new bushes: After the LCA is bolted to the subframe, the bushes would flex fairly easily out to about where the normal end of suspension travel would be. But to get the ball joint into the LCA, we must press the LCA further down by several inches. The rubber really doesn't want to accommodate this extra few inches. So we force it using extra long pry bars with a lot of weight and/or attaching a winch strap to force it.

Is it possible that this damages the rubber bushes during installation right from the get go by forcing the bush past it's usable design limits thereby dramatically shortening service life?

Might a better method be to somehow devise a way to compress the strut/spring assembly a few inches rather than forcing the LCA down?

Alternate method would be to disconnect the ball joint at the bottom of the steering knuckle - in every case.

Thoughts, anyone?

Weather is becoming more hospitable. Pressed the Febi bushes I ordered back in January into the original LCAs that came off the car 2 years ago. They'll be back on the car once we get a reasonably warm day without rain, toward the end of next week maybe.
The control arm inboard bolts should be left loose to give enough play to get the balljoint inserted.
Then jack the balljoint end up to the normal wheels installed resting position to preload the bushings, then tighten all the inboard bolts.
An offset box end wrench worked for the bolts inside the frame.

I thought about installing the spring compressors but its time consuming and I didn't want to be wrenching in a highly sprung area.

Failure to preload the CA might be a cause for bushing failure.?



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Re: Front LCA Rear bush by Bilstein/Febi

Post by dlundblad » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:22 am

jonesg wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:53 am
mrbrian200 wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:16 pm
Hmm. Might part of the issue with LCA bushes not lasting very long on these vehicles be that the procedure for installing the LCAs could be damaging the bushes? Hear me out:

In most cases we disconnect the ball joint by loosening the large bolt at the bottom, then force the LCA down which I believe is the Volvo procedure. This requires that the LCA be pulled several inches below where the strut would normally limit suspension travel/lower extension.

Getting an old LCA off isn't generally the issue.

I recall from installing the (currently on vehicle) LCAs that came preloaded with new bushes: After the LCA is bolted to the subframe, the bushes would flex fairly easily out to about where the normal end of suspension travel would be. But to get the ball joint into the LCA, we must press the LCA further down by several inches. The rubber really doesn't want to accommodate this extra few inches. So we force it using extra long pry bars with a lot of weight and/or attaching a winch strap to force it.

Is it possible that this damages the rubber bushes during installation right from the get go by forcing the bush past it's usable design limits thereby dramatically shortening service life?

Might a better method be to somehow devise a way to compress the strut/spring assembly a few inches rather than forcing the LCA down?

Alternate method would be to disconnect the ball joint at the bottom of the steering knuckle - in every case.

Thoughts, anyone?

Weather is becoming more hospitable. Pressed the Febi bushes I ordered back in January into the original LCAs that came off the car 2 years ago. They'll be back on the car once we get a reasonably warm day without rain, toward the end of next week maybe.
The control arm inboard bolts should be left loose to give enough play to get the balljoint inserted.
Then jack the balljoint end up to the normal wheels installed resting position to preload the bushings, then tighten all the inboard bolts.
An offset box end wrench worked for the bolts inside the frame.

I thought about installing the spring compressors but its time consuming and I didn't want to be wrenching in a highly sprung area.

Failure to preload the CA might be a cause for bushing failure.?
Having a hard time following this, but you're suggesting to install the ball joint (and I assume the strut as that's the main issue causer) with the control arm bolts loose?

Assuming we are talking about the P2 design mentioned in the OP, I don't see an issue with hyper extending the bushing during reassembly as I would be afraid of something not getting bolted up squared and torqued correctly with the strut's tension pushing everything down.


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