+1 on waynej's last post.
The terminals of a relay are defined as follows:
30 is the common or input voltage to be switched.
87a (87/2) is the normally closed connection. This terminal is hot when the relay isn't energized, it is unpowered the relay is energized.
87 is the normally open connection. Powered only when the relay is energized.
85 is connected to the ground of the triggering voltage.
86 is connected to the positive 12V of the triggering voltage.
Using 87/2 as a test for the fuel pump will always operate the pump whether or not the ignition is on. Checking at 87 with the ignition on should show 12 volts which is being passed to the pump.
A further thing to remember about electric fuel pumps is that they are designed to be safe, especially in the event of an accident when it would be inadvisable to have the pump pushing fuel through the system even if the engine has stopped but the ignition is still on. To prevent this on start-up, the computer earths (grounds) the relay and turns the fuel pump on. However, if the computer does not receive a signal within two seconds that the engine is running, it will shut off the fuel pump for safety reasons. It you sit in the vehicle and cycle the key on and off every five seconds, the fuel pump can be heard to run for only two seconds before it shuts off. It will turn on only when the engine starts. This is why you don't hear the pump running continuously.
Check that fuse and let us know the result.
Bill.
No fuel delivery (EDIT: No start)
-
billofdurham
- MVS Moderator
- Posts: 6507
- Joined: 2 February 2006
- Year and Model: 855, 1995
- Location: Durham, England
- Been thanked: 5 times
Re: No fuel delivery (EDIT: No start)
Work was good - retirement is better.
1996 850GLT 2.5 20v Estate Manual.
1995 Peugeot Boxer 2.5Tdi Autosleeper.
Previously:
1984 244DL, Manual, Beige.
1987 744GLE, Manual, Green.
1991 960 3.0 24v, Auto, Silver.
1994 940T Wentworth, Auto, Blue.
1996 850GLT 2.5 20v Estate Manual.
1995 Peugeot Boxer 2.5Tdi Autosleeper.
Previously:
1984 244DL, Manual, Beige.
1987 744GLE, Manual, Green.
1991 960 3.0 24v, Auto, Silver.
1994 940T Wentworth, Auto, Blue.
-
rgk
- Posts: 257
- Joined: 16 March 2009
- Year and Model: Gray 88 245
- Location: Yellowstone
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 1 time
Thank you everyone for your input! This was a severe, multi-layered problem that is now officially solved!
I wish I could say for sure what the exact root of the problem was, but due to my prodding and sniffing I may have damaged some things and caused even more problems! Because of this, I may have fixed the original problem while suffering from a new one. Here is a rough breakdown:
-Car would not crank; wiggled gear shifter. Car then cranked, started, and immediately died.
-Checked the relay by removing it. Car would crank but not start, which implied the relay was OK.
-Replaced the fuel pump and filter, which was costly and very difficult, as the bolts were nearly impossible to get to and remove. Many thanks to my local Advance Auto Parts and their equipment. Although this was possibly unnecessary, both were rather old. I also replaced a cracked gas hose that went from the tank to the main pump. Replacing all this presented me with intimate knowledge of the fuel system, so I don't feel too bad about it.
-Removed the gear shifter. Noticed that one of the screws holding the electrical parts together was loose, so I tightened it. I had to use some creativity here, as access to the screw was very difficult. This allowed the entire shifter to shift more smoothly. I also checked the voltage at the neutral safety switch, which presented voltage when the shifter was in Park and in Neutral, which meant that the safety switch was fine.
-Tried spraying carb cleaner through the air mass sensor. This caused the car to run a little longer, which implied a problem with the throttle body. Spraying carb cleaner through the AMS may have damaged it.
-Removed and cleaned throttle body. Upon putting it back, the car would not start at all. This was very confusing.
-Tried replacing a variety of parts from the old 244. Every time I replaced a part I, of course, cranked the car to test it. This sapped my battery, resulting in trips to the parts store. I ultimately killed the starter, but I don't feel too bad about it, as it was behaving erratically and was probably on its way out.
-Car sat in the driveway throughout the summer. Spiders built nests around the brakes and weeds grew around the undercarriage.
-Purchased a used starter on ebay for forty bucks. Replacing a starter on the 240 is very difficult, impossible even, if you don't know the right tricks. The tricks are as follows:
1. Unscrew the bolts holding the cross bar that holds the long shaft which runs from the transmission to the rear wheels (someone help me out with the term here, I've forgotten it). Centre bearing mounting.
2. Get a prybar of some sort, and small piece of 2x4. Safely and properly prop the car up on jack stands, and wedge the prybar in between the tranny and a solid piece of the undercarriage. Push the transmission as far as you can get it away from the starter, and wedge the 2x4 in so that it stays there.
3. Get a long box wrench and loosen the bottom bolt holding the transmission in place. Here you may have to get creative with the tools you have on hand. I believe I used a box wrench and a hammer to loosen it, and a socket to unscrew it after I got the top bolt.
4. You can not reach the top bolt from underneath the car. You have to get to it from the engine bay. Again, get a long box wrench with a slightly angled end. You will have to slip the box end over the bolt just by feeling it with your hands, as you will not be able to see it. Because of limited space, you will not be able to slip your hand in enough to loosen it, let alone use a hammer. Here you will have to get a long, strong piece of metal (another wrench worked for me) and somehow pry that sucker loose. I believe I slipped one end of a wrench against the top end and pried against a piece of metal sticking out of the engine. I didn't pry against a very solid part, but whatever it was provided enough resistance to do the job. Please be careful not to damage any sensitive equipment.
By now you should have gotten both bolts loose. You will have to completely unscrew the top bolt from your position at the engine bay, which is tedious and hard on the back. Be patient, stretch, and take breaks. Curse as needed. At the very least you can be content with the knowledge that, should you have to replace the starter again in the near future, it won't be as difficult to loosen the bolts.
-I was upset to find out that the starter did not work. I tested the voltage in the wire that took power from the ignition switch and told the starter to start. No voltage. At this point I was beginning to lose hope, and brought in outside assistance. A very nice mechanic came over on a Sunday to look at the car and discovered disconnected electrical leads. I had disconnected them when replacing the starter to provide more space for my arm. It was a gray box that housed about four connectors. However, the car still would not start. The mechanic then "tested" the starter by shorting it with screwdriver. Still it would not start. He deemed the starter definitely dead and recommended I replace it. I thanked him and, a day later, removed it and took it to the auto parts store.
-The starter worked fine, which was a relief. I noted which of the small leads on the starter was the one which should accept power from the ignition switch, and a) made sure to clean that lead on the starter, and b) made sure to clean that wire. I removed the female connecting end from the wire and stuck the wire directly inside the hole in the center of the male connector on the starter. The car cranked but would not start.
-I checked for spark, but did not get it. I went down the line checking the voltage at the appropriate places (coil, distributor, ignition module). I replaced the computer with one from the old 244 and ran a jumper cable at the appropriate terminals in the cable that goes to the distributor, which produced a spark. All this tinkering showed voltage in all the proper places and, somehow, finally produced a spark.
-At this point I came full circle, as the car started, ran for about ten seconds, and died. I thought the relay was bad, as the 87/2 terminal was showing only a minimal amount of voltage, and what voltage it did have was variable (moving from .1 to .3). I jumped the 87/2 and 30 connections and tried to start the car, but this resulted in a strange response from the engine, after which the car would not start at all again. I replaced the computer again with the old computer and checked for spark again at the jumped distributor cable. In other words, I repeated the same steps that led to spark and a start-die condition the first time. Once again I reached a start-die condition. I now recall that at some point a long time ago I checked the 20 amp fuse at the battery, and that it fell apart in my hands, after which I replaced it. I checked that fuse again at this point, and it checked out fine. I then ordered a new fuel pump relay.
-New fuel pump relay arrived and showed no new results. I considered the possibility of the ignition switch being bad but hesitated to buy a new one, as it simply did not feel right. Clearly, this was an electrical issue.
-I made sure to unscrew all the ground connections and clean them very well with both medium and heavy-grade steel wool. I noticed at this point that I missed a couple in my earlier cleaning attempts. I also cut off the female electrical terminal at the alternator and replaced it with a shiny, brand-new gold plated one, making sure to clean the male end on the terminal. I also cut the dirty end on the wire going from the ignition switch to the starter and applied a brand-new gold-plated female end.
-At this point, I noticed a large, thick, woven piece of wire attached to the engine at one end and the firewall at the other. This had become incredibly dirty due to an oil leak, which has since been fixed. Oil was leaking, caking, and burning all around the engine bay, covering everything with soot. I removed the wire, put it in a cup of acetone, then cleaned it with steel wool and a wire brush, being careful to preserve its weave.
-Still a start-die condition. I remembered that my old 244 would start, then die immediately when the car was cold, and remembered reading that the air mass meter (sensor) was the culprit. I replaced the air mass meter with the one from the old 244 (which was presumably bad), and the car started without a problem.
In retrospect, I probably damaged the air mass meter by spraying carb cleaner through it. The real culprit was probably all the oil that had caked around the connections. I believe it was clouding my car's ability to get good voltage. However, I did learn about and/or fix all of the following:
fuel pump
fuel filter
primer fuel pump
fuel lines and hoses
starter and wiring
fuel pump relay
ignition switch
gear shifter and wiring
throttle body
ground connections
coil, distributor, spark plugs, wires
ignition module
Thanks again to everyone who helped! I wish you clean heads and hearts in future repairs!
I wish I could say for sure what the exact root of the problem was, but due to my prodding and sniffing I may have damaged some things and caused even more problems! Because of this, I may have fixed the original problem while suffering from a new one. Here is a rough breakdown:
-Car would not crank; wiggled gear shifter. Car then cranked, started, and immediately died.
-Checked the relay by removing it. Car would crank but not start, which implied the relay was OK.
-Replaced the fuel pump and filter, which was costly and very difficult, as the bolts were nearly impossible to get to and remove. Many thanks to my local Advance Auto Parts and their equipment. Although this was possibly unnecessary, both were rather old. I also replaced a cracked gas hose that went from the tank to the main pump. Replacing all this presented me with intimate knowledge of the fuel system, so I don't feel too bad about it.
-Removed the gear shifter. Noticed that one of the screws holding the electrical parts together was loose, so I tightened it. I had to use some creativity here, as access to the screw was very difficult. This allowed the entire shifter to shift more smoothly. I also checked the voltage at the neutral safety switch, which presented voltage when the shifter was in Park and in Neutral, which meant that the safety switch was fine.
-Tried spraying carb cleaner through the air mass sensor. This caused the car to run a little longer, which implied a problem with the throttle body. Spraying carb cleaner through the AMS may have damaged it.
-Removed and cleaned throttle body. Upon putting it back, the car would not start at all. This was very confusing.
-Tried replacing a variety of parts from the old 244. Every time I replaced a part I, of course, cranked the car to test it. This sapped my battery, resulting in trips to the parts store. I ultimately killed the starter, but I don't feel too bad about it, as it was behaving erratically and was probably on its way out.
-Car sat in the driveway throughout the summer. Spiders built nests around the brakes and weeds grew around the undercarriage.
-Purchased a used starter on ebay for forty bucks. Replacing a starter on the 240 is very difficult, impossible even, if you don't know the right tricks. The tricks are as follows:
1. Unscrew the bolts holding the cross bar that holds the long shaft which runs from the transmission to the rear wheels (someone help me out with the term here, I've forgotten it). Centre bearing mounting.
2. Get a prybar of some sort, and small piece of 2x4. Safely and properly prop the car up on jack stands, and wedge the prybar in between the tranny and a solid piece of the undercarriage. Push the transmission as far as you can get it away from the starter, and wedge the 2x4 in so that it stays there.
3. Get a long box wrench and loosen the bottom bolt holding the transmission in place. Here you may have to get creative with the tools you have on hand. I believe I used a box wrench and a hammer to loosen it, and a socket to unscrew it after I got the top bolt.
4. You can not reach the top bolt from underneath the car. You have to get to it from the engine bay. Again, get a long box wrench with a slightly angled end. You will have to slip the box end over the bolt just by feeling it with your hands, as you will not be able to see it. Because of limited space, you will not be able to slip your hand in enough to loosen it, let alone use a hammer. Here you will have to get a long, strong piece of metal (another wrench worked for me) and somehow pry that sucker loose. I believe I slipped one end of a wrench against the top end and pried against a piece of metal sticking out of the engine. I didn't pry against a very solid part, but whatever it was provided enough resistance to do the job. Please be careful not to damage any sensitive equipment.
By now you should have gotten both bolts loose. You will have to completely unscrew the top bolt from your position at the engine bay, which is tedious and hard on the back. Be patient, stretch, and take breaks. Curse as needed. At the very least you can be content with the knowledge that, should you have to replace the starter again in the near future, it won't be as difficult to loosen the bolts.
-I was upset to find out that the starter did not work. I tested the voltage in the wire that took power from the ignition switch and told the starter to start. No voltage. At this point I was beginning to lose hope, and brought in outside assistance. A very nice mechanic came over on a Sunday to look at the car and discovered disconnected electrical leads. I had disconnected them when replacing the starter to provide more space for my arm. It was a gray box that housed about four connectors. However, the car still would not start. The mechanic then "tested" the starter by shorting it with screwdriver. Still it would not start. He deemed the starter definitely dead and recommended I replace it. I thanked him and, a day later, removed it and took it to the auto parts store.
-The starter worked fine, which was a relief. I noted which of the small leads on the starter was the one which should accept power from the ignition switch, and a) made sure to clean that lead on the starter, and b) made sure to clean that wire. I removed the female connecting end from the wire and stuck the wire directly inside the hole in the center of the male connector on the starter. The car cranked but would not start.
-I checked for spark, but did not get it. I went down the line checking the voltage at the appropriate places (coil, distributor, ignition module). I replaced the computer with one from the old 244 and ran a jumper cable at the appropriate terminals in the cable that goes to the distributor, which produced a spark. All this tinkering showed voltage in all the proper places and, somehow, finally produced a spark.
-At this point I came full circle, as the car started, ran for about ten seconds, and died. I thought the relay was bad, as the 87/2 terminal was showing only a minimal amount of voltage, and what voltage it did have was variable (moving from .1 to .3). I jumped the 87/2 and 30 connections and tried to start the car, but this resulted in a strange response from the engine, after which the car would not start at all again. I replaced the computer again with the old computer and checked for spark again at the jumped distributor cable. In other words, I repeated the same steps that led to spark and a start-die condition the first time. Once again I reached a start-die condition. I now recall that at some point a long time ago I checked the 20 amp fuse at the battery, and that it fell apart in my hands, after which I replaced it. I checked that fuse again at this point, and it checked out fine. I then ordered a new fuel pump relay.
-New fuel pump relay arrived and showed no new results. I considered the possibility of the ignition switch being bad but hesitated to buy a new one, as it simply did not feel right. Clearly, this was an electrical issue.
-I made sure to unscrew all the ground connections and clean them very well with both medium and heavy-grade steel wool. I noticed at this point that I missed a couple in my earlier cleaning attempts. I also cut off the female electrical terminal at the alternator and replaced it with a shiny, brand-new gold plated one, making sure to clean the male end on the terminal. I also cut the dirty end on the wire going from the ignition switch to the starter and applied a brand-new gold-plated female end.
-At this point, I noticed a large, thick, woven piece of wire attached to the engine at one end and the firewall at the other. This had become incredibly dirty due to an oil leak, which has since been fixed. Oil was leaking, caking, and burning all around the engine bay, covering everything with soot. I removed the wire, put it in a cup of acetone, then cleaned it with steel wool and a wire brush, being careful to preserve its weave.
-Still a start-die condition. I remembered that my old 244 would start, then die immediately when the car was cold, and remembered reading that the air mass meter (sensor) was the culprit. I replaced the air mass meter with the one from the old 244 (which was presumably bad), and the car started without a problem.
In retrospect, I probably damaged the air mass meter by spraying carb cleaner through it. The real culprit was probably all the oil that had caked around the connections. I believe it was clouding my car's ability to get good voltage. However, I did learn about and/or fix all of the following:
fuel pump
fuel filter
primer fuel pump
fuel lines and hoses
starter and wiring
fuel pump relay
ignition switch
gear shifter and wiring
throttle body
ground connections
coil, distributor, spark plugs, wires
ignition module
Thanks again to everyone who helped! I wish you clean heads and hearts in future repairs!
Last edited by rgk on 09 Nov 2011, 19:04, edited 1 time in total.
rgk -- was dickdeadly
-
rgk
- Posts: 257
- Joined: 16 March 2009
- Year and Model: Gray 88 245
- Location: Yellowstone
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 1 time
Additional car-related post script:
The next day I decided to start the car just to see if it would start again. It didn't. A day after that I inspected it further and found that the car will start with the fuel pump relay in only halfway. I cleaned the terminals and inspected everything under the hood. It turns out that I forgot to tighten the air mass meter to its hoses. After tightening, however, the car would not start until I replaced the fuel pump relay with the one from the older car. So it seems that the fuel pump relay wants to match the air mass meter, as both parts came out of the '85 244. The newer relays only worked when the meter was loose. Strange, no? I almost want to try to hook the old air mass meter up again and see if it will work with the newer relays!
The next day I decided to start the car just to see if it would start again. It didn't. A day after that I inspected it further and found that the car will start with the fuel pump relay in only halfway. I cleaned the terminals and inspected everything under the hood. It turns out that I forgot to tighten the air mass meter to its hoses. After tightening, however, the car would not start until I replaced the fuel pump relay with the one from the older car. So it seems that the fuel pump relay wants to match the air mass meter, as both parts came out of the '85 244. The newer relays only worked when the meter was loose. Strange, no? I almost want to try to hook the old air mass meter up again and see if it will work with the newer relays!
rgk -- was dickdeadly
-
billofdurham
- MVS Moderator
- Posts: 6507
- Joined: 2 February 2006
- Year and Model: 855, 1995
- Location: Durham, England
- Been thanked: 5 times
This must be one of those things that go down in automotive history as 'unexplained'. The relays and the AMMs are the same on both cars so, in theory, they should work regardless.
Strange, unexplained.
Bill.
Strange, unexplained.
Bill.
Work was good - retirement is better.
1996 850GLT 2.5 20v Estate Manual.
1995 Peugeot Boxer 2.5Tdi Autosleeper.
Previously:
1984 244DL, Manual, Beige.
1987 744GLE, Manual, Green.
1991 960 3.0 24v, Auto, Silver.
1994 940T Wentworth, Auto, Blue.
1996 850GLT 2.5 20v Estate Manual.
1995 Peugeot Boxer 2.5Tdi Autosleeper.
Previously:
1984 244DL, Manual, Beige.
1987 744GLE, Manual, Green.
1991 960 3.0 24v, Auto, Silver.
1994 940T Wentworth, Auto, Blue.
-
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