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Fast Friday #3: Lucky talks Chip vs. MBC

How to go faster, stop quicker, and turn harder. Chips, exhaust, larger turbos, bigger/slotted/drilled rotors, high performance brake pads, manual boost controllers, performance shocks/struts/springs, airbox mods and more! Also discussion on HID and Xenon lights, aftermarket foglights and other exterior lighting.
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Volvo Repair Database Fast Friday #3: Lucky talks Chip vs. MBC

Post by matthew1 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:03 pm

Image

I'm posting this a touch early (Thursday 12:30pm MST), but it's Friday in parts of Asia ;-).

I shot an email over to my favorite Volvo speed genius Lucky, of Active Research & Development, formerly of iPD, MVS sponsor. He was happy to give his thoughts on the question Chip or Manual Boost Controller?

Now, I know what you're thinking: he runs a chip tune company! Of course he'll favor chips! Yes he runs a chip tune company, but he's known throughout the Volvo world as a fair, honest tuner. I'm more than comfortable letting his words rest on his reputation. Disclosure: ARD is not a sponsor here, and I don't own any ARD equipment. I do have a manual boost controller in my 850 T5.

The following are Lucky's words with my headers to break up the text, and give the context of my questions.

Chip or MBC?

MBC's are great devices and by and large can provide decent performance upgrades, however there are some issue to be aware of before simply installing one. Since the ECU is no longer in control of boost and the MBC will allow boost to develop as fast as the turbo can provide it (up to the adjusted target) you're flowing quite a bit more air and consequently have more load against the engine than the ECU is tuned for. This means you may have too much timing and not enough fuel in the early part of the RPM band where you really need it. This is the primary source of how and why MBC's can damage these engines, specifically with respect to bending rods or spinning rod bearings.

Both Chip and MBC?

As for a tuned ECU. ARD does offer our White tune for cars with MBC's and it does have adjustments in both timing and fuel to help the engine work with an MBC more safely. However everyone should be aware of the potential risks this brings before deciding on going this route.

Chips Make Safe Levels of Boost

With all other ARD Tune offerings the ECU is left in control of boost development so that not only is boost kept at safe levels throughout the RPM range but the ECU can reduce boost pressure if necessary if it deems there to be faults in the engine configuration that might make it unsafe for full boost level to be developed. This safety feature is something that an MBC overrides and prevents the ECU from limiting boost when it detects a fault in the system. This is the second area where engine damage can occur that might otherwise be prevented.

Electronic Boost Controllers Can Limit Boost

Electronic boost controllers with gain control are starting to show up more and more in the market and can be very useful since you can specify a max boost level per any given RPM. This helps to prevent too much boost too early and is a further step in the right direction when using aftermarket boost control systems.

850 T5 w/ MBC Produces 10psi in 1st, 15psi in 2nd/3rd/4th... Why?

With respect to your findings as it relates to boost development in each gear.... 1st gear is a pretty short gear in Volvo transmissions both auto and manual and thus does not provide enough engine load to allow the turbo to reach a 10+ psi boost target. Once 2nd gear is reached then the transmission loading to the engine has a better mechanical advantage and can load the engine enough to allow the turbo to spool to the higher boost targets as you have found in your testing.

That's all for this Fast Friday, stay tuned for next week and we'll cover any other hot topics or member questions!

~ ~ ~

Many thanks to Lucky for his thoughts and clarifications regarding generating more power from our Volvo "white block" 5-cyl engines. You may reply to this topic if it's about MBCs or chips, or start your own topic about anything else performance related in the Volvo Performance subforum.


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Re: Fast Friday #3: Lucky talks Chip vs. MBC

Post by MatDesign84 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:06 am

Great write up! This answered some of my questions I have.


Currently: 1997, 855 T5 | 1998 Subaru Legacy GT 2.5
Previous: 1997, 850 GLT | 1993, 850 GLT | 1988, BMW 325i, 1990 Volvo 240 DL
"That's good to know though in case they let loose again, but I swear if they do, I'll punch something." -jblackburn

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Re: Fast Friday #3: Lucky talks Chip vs. MBC

Post by matthew1 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:33 pm

If you have more questions, post 'em, I'm sure he'll respond. He's a member here.


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Re: Fast Friday #3: Lucky talks Chip vs. MBC

Post by jimmy57 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:56 pm

I am curious if ARD has the code cracked to allow reflash of ECM for persons wanting to do an auto trans to manual trans swap on Motronic ECM's in the CAN cars.



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Re: Fast Friday #3: Lucky talks Chip vs. MBC

Post by JordanW » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:51 pm

jimmy57 wrote:I am curious if ARD has the code cracked to allow reflash of ECM for persons wanting to do an auto trans to manual trans swap on Motronic ECM's in the CAN cars.
I would drop him an email and ask. Sounds like early ME7 cars (the 99,00 SVCXC70) are easier than later ones. Just the other day he posted a response to this thread on VS


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Re: Fast Friday #3: Lucky talks Chip vs. MBC

Post by SweedSpeed » Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:46 pm

Hi Lucky,

I'm trying to find a way to use a MBC in conjunction w/the IPD HD TCV so I don't over boost in the lower gears and so the ECU will continue to monitor activity. Current set-up works (link to diagram below-just assume the "NC-75" is the IPD TCV )but won't build more than 8-9 lbs of boost. I have a hunch it's because there is consistent bleed-off of pressure via the t-fitting to the compressor bypass valve. I'd love to do an ARD tune but it's not in the budget. Any suggestions aside from a proper tune or electronic boost controller?I appreciate any help you can offer.

http://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/forums ... &mode=view

BTW, Matthew - thank again for the images and language on the MBC set-up you are using. It worked well indeed but just allows too much boost in 1st for my non-R engine. Back to the drawing board.



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Re: Fast Friday #3: Lucky talks Chip vs. MBC

Post by ARD-Lucky » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:09 pm

For manual swaps in the P80 chassis (S/V 70 from 1999-2000 and C70 from 1999-2004) It's pretty easy and we can certainly provide that. For P2 models 1999-2003 it's a bit more work but still very doable. As for P2 2004 and later models that is a bit harder and I ask folks who are interested to contact me directly for info.

As for MBC in parallel to a turbo control valve; If your intention is to use the MBC to control spikes then you have it setup correctly. If I'm understanding you correctly you're on a stock tune still so 8-9psi is about all you'll see with the MBC setup in that fashion.

Thanks guys, hit me with any other ?'s you have!

-Lucky



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Re: Fast Friday #3: Lucky talks Chip vs. MBC

Post by KlubMarcus » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:59 pm

ARD-Lucky wrote: Thanks guys, hit me with any other ?'s you have!
Will an ECU with the SAS delete mod flash properly?


:o The beater just won't die! So we're clawing our way back to Stage 0.

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Re: Fast Friday #3: Lucky talks Chip vs. MBC

Post by ARD-Lucky » Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:31 am

Yes, ECU's with the SAS mod are no problem to reflash!



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Re: Fast Friday #3: Lucky talks Chip vs. MBC

Post by KlubMarcus » Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:10 pm

ARD-Lucky wrote:Yes, ECU's with the SAS mod are no problem to reflash!
Thanks :D


:o The beater just won't die! So we're clawing our way back to Stage 0.

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