AWD System

billr99 · Post by **billr99** » 29 Mar 2009, 05:16

So in the end the question I have is how many of these failures have been documented out of the "x" number of cars produced with the system and over how many total miles driven? It seems every car made has its urban myths, such as things like Honda never need repairs or Chevys can drive nearly forever without an oil change. I concede that the design is not as stout as say that in an Audi, but a survey going on over on the Cross-Country Forum shows that transmission failures are not as widespread as one would be lead to believe in these forums. If a similar survey was made on bevel gears what would it show? Further, if such a survey could be made also asking how the car was driven would we see a smaller number of failures than we would expect and would the reasons indicated mis-use or lack of attention.

In almost every example I have seen on these failures, someone, either the current or previous owners, have done something that caused the failure. As you suggest, a donut spare could create the issue. Is that a failure of the system or a failure of Volvo to basically pay attention to their own spec, i.e. rolling diameter within certain tolerance?

Bottom line here is that I have had a bunch of cars and nearly all have had their supposed bogeymen, except for the Japanese cars I've had. Funny thing is I've never been bitten by the former and equally funny, the later have had their own issues and were not trouble-free (they were also devoid of any personality too). All of them were maintained and gave service as expected as a result. I guess accuracy in reporting is what I'm after and an end to the creation of car myths based on a handful of stories of questionable validity.

Cheers,

Bill

Post by **MadeInJapan** » 29 Mar 2009, 06:40

Certainly validation is needed. I tried to get some information for you from www.truedelta.com but seems there is actually not much there on the XC70 or early AWD system Volvo's (tons on S60's but AWD is not specified). None-the-less, Michael Kerish who runs that site has been collecting data from owners on specific types of repairs. If you're really interested in this, possibly an XC specific site such as www.xc70.com would have more information. I may be perpetuating the "urban legend" of the inherent weakness of the early Volvo AWD system like you say, but mostly I'm going w/ what others have posted from their own experiences- and I've been on these boards for over 10 years. That said, most of the time folks don't even come to these forums unless they are having issues with their cars and...most don't buy new...and most don't know how the previous owner treated their cars. Still, a failure of this expensive system (user error or not) evokes great emotion and headache. Let us know if you can find a source for objective data on this.

slc10844 · Post by **slc10844** » 29 Mar 2009, 07:38

What are years were the 1st gen and Haldex systems used in the XC70, and what are the main differences? I heard Volvo had some problems with the early AWD system but would have thought they would have taken steps to correct the problem. Was the 1st gen so bad Volvo's only way of fixing the problem a total redesign?

Post by **MadeInJapan** » 29 Mar 2009, 07:46

First year was '98 in the U.S...I believe '97 in Europe. Not so much that it was so bad that it took a redesign- the design just got better and better with added technology- same as any component. After about '03 the system was full Haldex which is tons better (sturdier)...still need to run same size tires though on the same axle. Like Billr99 has stated, we need more objective data on the older system and its failures. I suspect there are owners out there who have had absolutely no issue with these early AWD systems but they have done preventative maintenance such as changing out the bevel gear oil and differential fluid and not stomping on the gas when knowing that each wheel would rotate at different rates (snow, ice, mud, etc.).

slc10844 · Post by **slc10844** » 29 Mar 2009, 08:11

How often should the lube be changed and is it, like many of the other fluids, Volvo specific?

Post by **MadeInJapan** » 29 Mar 2009, 08:52

Like what they claim for the transmission fluid, they don't recommend a change, I don't believe, but it's best to get on a schedule and change it periodically- others will probably have different opinions but I'd say anywhere between 30 or 35K and 50K miles.

billr99 · Post by **billr99** » 29 Mar 2009, 09:17

That data that Michael Kerish is putting together is interesting but a bit limited in the ability to expand on particular aspects of the data that he is collecting. For instance, is replacing the coil packs at 160K kms (100K miles) routine maintenance or what? Since I consider that kind of thing equivalent to the old cap, rotor and condensor, I did not note it when I posted data to Kerish's survey for my 160K service. However, having to replace endlinks every 50K kms (at bet) isn't normal in my mind or experience and I will note it the next time I post my data. I guess being one of the old guys to these forums (at least 10 years on various ones as well as going back 30 years on Volvos), I'm more interested in seeing useful information as accurate and complete as possible. Putting the fear of God into everyone based on a few incidents really isn't useful and harmful to the reputation of the marque. Hell, I had 3 Land Rovers (Series 2A thru to a Range Rover), had great luck and serious mileage with all of them, and they had a dismal rep. I'm not saying I do anything special other than pay attention, but perhaps that is where others run into trouble. They would like cars to be like refrigerators (I use to run into the same thoughts with folks and their PCs but that is another story), but unfortunately the environments that cars operate in are not as benign as one's kitchen. It takes some time, a bit of money, and a whole lot of sensing what is going on to keep up with these things (regardless of who make them) and keep them at their operational norms.

Anyway, a bit of clarification on a couple of points. '97 850 VC setups were sold in Canada. I don't think many but I actually saw one in the hands of an old gent who lived up the road from me in Northern Ontario. Pretty standard turbo 850 wagon otherwise. As far as a bevel gear and rear diff change interval, I would think 50K miles would be reasonable. I can't recall any of the cars I have had that actually had an interval specified for manual gearboxes or diffs specify anything shorter (other than saying a shorter interval for extreme operation like racing).

Later,

Bill

Post by **matthew1** » 29 Mar 2009, 14:11

Bill, like MIJ touched on, the minute anyone puts up a poll here it's "born skewed".

95% of everyone here is here because something's gone wrong with their Volvo. The other 5% are helpers like the 3 moderators and a handful of others.

To get reliable data, you need to contact Volvo owners via mail, or some other "motive agnostic" method... set up a booth at a shopping mall or something.

Not to say polling people here is useless, I think it's very informative when taken with a grain of salt. I agree that the pre-Haldex AWD warnings get a bit shrill at times, but that's because the audience (any individual new member) may not be aware of the potential pitfall there, and thus the message is repeated each time.

billr99 · Post by **billr99** » 30 Mar 2009, 05:00

Matt:

I absolutely agree. It happens with every make both in a positive and negative way and it can have serious ramifications. Take a look at GM's dilemma right now and you have to suspect that some of the public's outcry in regard to a bailout is GM's perceived quality issues. If you take what JD Powers has to say (and I do question some of their methodology as well), some GM brands are right up there but that isn't going to save GM, is it?

Now don't get me wrong, engineers blow it sometimes and I've had an issue now and again that, at least to me, seemed to be bum engineering. Interestingly, some of the worse were with a couple of Porsches I owned. But due to their reputation for engineering excellence, the problems were considered one offs, but these particular issues were as commonly reported as our bevel gear and transmission problems are. So to take a close on this subject, I guess the answer is buy what you like, maintain it, and just deal with things as they come. If in the end you think the car is a POS, then get rid of it. Pretty simple answer in the end.

Cheers and thank for allowing an old car guy to rant for a bit.

Bill

mkaresh · Post by **mkaresh** » 14 Apr 2009, 07:17

MadeInJapan wrote:Certainly validation is needed. I tried to get some information for you from http://www.truedelta.com but seems there is actually not much there on the XC70 or early AWD system Volvo's (tons on S60's but AWD is not specified).

Thanks for contacting me, MadeInJapan. Beyond the reliability stats, we also post all reported repairs to the site. Page for that is here:

Volvo V70 / XC70 repair histories

It looks like two owners have reported AWD system failures--one with a 2000, the other with a 2003. One says the shop told him that the failure rate is one in five, but our data don't appear to support such a high failure rate.

Ideally, we'd provide a failure rate. If we can get enough participates to provide separate stats for the FWD and the AWD, and there are enough problems with the AWD system to warrant separate reporting, we'll provide separate stats.

Currently there are 407 S60, V70, and XC70 owners signed up to participate, which is a good start. But more are needed to split FWD and AWD.

Details here:

Car reliability research

AWD System

Re: AWD System