blown rear main seal? PCV problem? to keep or not to keep?

[zmvf]

Hi All,

This is my first post, but I've used these excellent forums before to fix my odometer. It went perfectly and the guide was fantastic!

Anyway - I've run into a rather serious problem that is beyond the scope of my capabilities (which are pretty minimal with cars). I'll give some information (apologize in advance if it's not helpful). If I've forgotten anything that you need to know, please just ask and I'll answer to the best of my abilities.

I've got a '96, 850 GLT wagon. I bought it used w/ ~50k miles 4 years ago. I've put on ~90k since then (I'm now at ~138k). I drive ~85 miles a day, 5 days a week (mostly highway).
Other than the odometer, I've had very standard maintenance done at my local STS
- change the oil every ~5k
- replaced the rotors a few years ago
- new tires...

Nothing very remarkable until about 8 months ago. I got a check engine light and there was a very clear audible change in the exhaust system. I took it to the mechanic and both O2 sensors and the catalytic converter were toast. I got those fixed (~$900 if memory serves...), but about a month later the CE light came on again. The mechanic replaced the front O2 sensor again figuring it was just a faulty one. Over the last 6 months, I've been in as many times because and always b/c of the O2 sensor code (sry - I don't know the exact code). Each time, they found something new that they thought for sure would fix the problem. Although this back and forth to the shop is a major pain in the a$$ for me was tolerable b/c I could still drive the car and get to work. Also - I should say that I trust my mechanic. Other than the original payment, I haven't been charged for any of the other visits, and I know that they have been investing significant man hours trying to figure this out.

About 2 weeks ago I took the car in for an oil change and to get the damn CE light issue taken care of. I had noticed some oil spotting on my garage floor, so I mentioned it and asked them to take a look. They said that the gasket seal was leaking. He misquoted me the price for the work and when it ended up being a multi-hour fix, he only charged me 1/2 the labor (~$325). I thought the problem was fixed and so did they (including another adjustment to the exhaust system to try and fix the CE light). Two days later (~170 miles of driving), my engine light came on again, and then the oil light came on. I checked the oil level at the gas station and it was completely empty. I had to put in ~6 quarts so that I could drive the 45 miles back to my mechanic. The looked at it and found that the cam seals had blown out. They kept the car for a couple days, fixed the cam seals (and the CE light again) then gave it back to me (i didn't pay any additional above the $325). I drove the car for about 40 miles and then the CE light came on again (I've lost track of how many times by now). The next morning there was a big oil puddle in my garage.... back to the mechanic.

they worked on it all day, and the final answer is that the rear mail seal is leaking a lot. They don't have the setup to do that sort of repair, so now I've got my car sitting in my garage and effectively undriveable b/c of how quickly it's losing oil.

I know I should have done this earlier, but I didn't really think of checking this site until this weekend. I've since read all of these threads about PCV cleaning, crankcase pressure, etc.:

https://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/forums ... =1&t=43780
https://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/forums ... 9&start=14
https://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/forums ... 7&start=70
https://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/forums ... =1&t=19549
https://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/forums ... =1&t=17232
https://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/forums ... =1&t=34235
https://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/forums ... =1&t=16704
https://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/forums ... php?t=8220

I thought that I must have a clogged PCV (since to my knowledge this has never been fixed). This morning I tried what was mentioned in one of the threads. I didn't have smoke coming out of the dipstick. I also zip tied a rubber glove onto the place where you put oil in the engine and ran the car. the glove stood up, but it did not inflate like a balloon. However, there was lots of smoke coming out of the tailpipe.

so I'm in a tough spot now. I would love to try and fix this myself, but the reality is that I just do not have the time to do it (and - frankly, I'm not sure I have the skill). I also need to get to and from work and not having a car is a major problem (so I need to solve this soon). Here are my various questions.
1) Based on what I've been told, the rear main seal is toast. Apparently this is ~$1K to fix. However, the mechanic thinks there is a high amount of pressure and that it's just a matter of time before the next weakest seal blows out. do I need to take this to a Volvo specific place to get this work done (perhaps to check the PCV)
2) is this even worth fixing... or should I just get a new car? (I just don't want to start throwing more money into a lost cause)

less important questions - but things I'm curious about after having read all these threads...
3) are a flame trap and an oil trap the same thing?
4) what is seafoam?
5) what is bar's leak stuff?
6) how do i check the crankcase pressure?
7) how is a compression test performed?

Thanks in advance everyone!

[erikv11]

(1) Agreed, RMS is likely toast. Yes it is about $1k to fix. If your mechanic doesn't know how to deal with the PCV then they aren't the ones to do the PCV or the RMS, you need to find someone else. PCV will be a couple hundred bucks more.
(2) Your call. In general, I tell people that these cars are going to require a steady stream of maintenance once past 150k, and if you don't do it yourself then the car will make you broke in repair bills.
(3) They are different. Oil trap is a box on the block, the main PCV breather box. Flame trap is a worthless little plastic piece that hopefully you threw away.
(4) Seafoam is a chemical cleaner, I'll let others explain it.
(5) Ditto, it is magic in a can, but I would never ever use Bar's leaks.
(6) crankcase pressure you have checked, at the dipstick
(7) compression you have to pull the spark plugs and hook up a compression gauge there, turn over the engine and see how much pressure builds up. There are a few more details but basically that is it. This test tells you what kind of shape the pistons are in.

And ...
(8) I am a vulture looking for a nice wagon body that needs an engine. If you end up wanting to let this go cheap, please contact me by PM on this site, including where you are located.

[Ozark Lee]

f you can get the actual code(s) numbers it would go a long way for us to help you. 90% of what are diagnosed as O2 sensor codes ares actually vacuum leaks which are very cheap and easy to fix.

...Lee

[zmvf]

Hi Folks,

Sorry for the slow responses - I"ve been following up on some of your points/questions.

I got the PCV fixed by a volvo specialist. His general feeling is that the car is in good shape and worth doing repairs on (he thought it was unlikly when we had originally talked on the phone (before he saw the car), but after he'd actually seen the car, he changed his mind). After fixing the PCV, he said let's see if the RMS leak is tolerable before we do anything further, but I'm still leaking a decent amount of oil, and I still have a lot of smoke coming out of the tailpipe. it's not clear to me how fixing the RMS will make the smoky tailpipe problem go away - could someone explain this to me?

also - I have a few friends who to car work and they mentioned that they think i should have a leakdown test performed on the engine before I bother with the RMS replacement. Their logic (which seems sound to me) is that if the leakdown is >25%, it's not worth putting much into the car since the engine isn't in very good shape any more. I'd really like the opinion of you all about this as well.

@erikv11 (in response to your points)
(2) if the maintenance is still significantly less than a new car and not a major hassle, then I can live with that... would it be possible to put a $$ value on what you think is reasonable to spend each year?
(5) can you expound on why you'd never use a product like Bar's


@Ozark Lee
I had to track down an OBDII reader, but here's what the code is (there's only one). I also posted the freeze information (if that's what you call it)

OBDII code - P0133 (something about a slow reponse on the O2 sencer #1)
Engine RPM - 1760
Load Value - 12.9%
Coolant Temp - 190 F
Short Term Fuel Trim 1 - -4.6%
Long Term Fuel Trim 1 - 5.4%
Short Term Fuel Trim 3 - -100.6%
Long Term Fuel Trim 3 - -100.6%
speed - 39 mph

while I'm still figuring out whether this is worth fixing, I guess I'd mention that I've been having intermittent electric problems with the dashboard lights for > 1year. Right now the dash lights work, but the control panel lights are mostly out. I can life with this, but I know that in my old 240 I had problems w/ the wiring harness and had to get it fixed. I wasnt't sure if that's common in the 850s as well... Also if it's an expensive fix that must be completed or the car will stop working or is something I can leave alone and just igrnore...

Thanks again for your help everyone,
zmvf

[jblackburn]

it's not clear to me how fixing the RMS will make the smoky tailpipe problem go away - could someone explain this to me?

It won't. All that will do is make it stop leaking oil on the ground.

Did the mechanic remove the flame trap at the intake snorkel? Being a non-turbo, your only other culprit would probably be leaky valve stem seals. I'd still do a compression/leakdown test as an indicator of how healthy the engine is at this point in its life.

P0133 usually means that you've got broken vacuum lines somewhere in there. A can of carb cleaner sprayed around lines while listening for a surge in engine idle will help you find leaks.

while I'm still figuring out whether this is worth fixing, I guess I'd mention that I've been having intermittent electric problems with the dashboard lights for > 1year. Right now the dash lights work, but the control panel lights are mostly out. I can life with this, but I know that in my old 240 I had problems w/ the wiring harness and had to get it fixed. I wasnt't sure if that's common in the 850s as well... Also if it's an expensive fix that must be completed or the car will stop working or is something I can leave alone and just igrnore...

Either the ignition switch or headlight switch. Try twitching your key a slight bit once you start the car and see if anything else comes on.

[wheelsup]

Pull the oil dipstick, and put a radiator hose on the end of it, snaking thru down below the engine. Mine loops toward the battery side. I was losing a quart every 600 miles or so and this reduced to it about a quart every 3k or more. As long as there is a pressure release the RMS should stop leaking, and just top it off every now and then. FWIW mine has been leaking for 50,000+ miles. I don't care since it's not a lot, and my PCV system is completely clear. I think it might be time for rings, but the car is still 100% drivable and reliable IMO.

[zmvf]

thanks,

@jblackburn
- He replaced the flame trap (I don't know about the intake snorkel part). Also - in one of the threads I posted above, I read about doing the EGR cleaning. Is it possible that you could clean out the PCV system without much improvement the the crankcase pressure if the EGR is plugged? I didn't mention this to the volvo mechanic, but I suppose I probably should as well...
- as for the P0133 error, I'll pass this info along to the mechanic pending decisions about the RMS repair...
- I'll jiggle the key and see if that makes any differences. (I figure while I'm deciding if this is worth fixing, I better just lay it all out on the table)

@wheelsup
- I had been thinking about this as well. I think i read in another thread that some others had done this. I suspect this isn't exactly ecofriendly..? My guess is that I won't pass the emissions tests right now given the amount of smoke coming out the rear.
- can i just take the dipstick out for a few days and drive it like that to see if it helps? what is the danger of doing this? I drive ~85 miles, mostly highway a day.

thanks
-zmvf

[Nuttydriver]

I had an old Honda that leaked and burned oil like crazy. I started running 20w50 oil in the summer and 10w40 in the winter and it stopped all the leaks, however it still smoked out the tail pipe like crazy. The valves made some noise on cold starts but other then that I had no problems and ran it like that for 3 years. Maybe someone on here has tried it with their Volvo I'm not sure how they would react with oil that thick though.

[jblackburn]

"Flame trap" and "oil separator" are kind of thrown around loosely in coorelation with each other. The reality is there's a small flame trap disc near the throttle body snorkel that clogs up and can cause the PCV system not to vent. There's also the oil separator box under the intake manifold that has an ENTIRELY different job.



I really wouldn't use a -50 weight oil in one of these. Even a 20W. Just too thick.

That's meant for old engines with much less close tolerances.

Leave the dipstick slightly out of place for a few days and see how much leaks out of it. When my PCV was SEVERELY clogged, all that did was blow oil all over my engine.

[zmvf]

@jblackburn
- so the volvo mechanic definitely talked about a disc as the thing that needed to be cleaned and the repair bill definitely said flame trap (i don't have it in front of me now so I can't say waht else is there)
- any thoughts on the EGR question?

thanks,
-zmvf