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No voltage from ignition to starter troubleshoot (1999 S70)

Help, Advice and DIY Tutorials on Volvo's extremely popular car line -- Volvo's 1990s "bread and butter" cars -- powered by the ubiquitous and durable Volvo inline 5-cylinder engine.

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Whitebird
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No voltage from ignition to starter troubleshoot (1999 S70)

Post by Whitebird » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:06 pm

Good day, All:

After reading a dozen threads here, I'm to the point where I'm out of ideas on an ignition problem, but at least I know a lot about what the problem isn't!

With key in position III, I have no voltage coming via the green/red wire that connects to the spade terminal on my solenoid (starter and solenoid work great; I can start the car right up by jumping 12v to the spade terminal with the key in position II).

Working from the other end, I know that when I turn the key to position III, I get 12v on the yellow/white wire on my ignition switch (see pic., my 1999 S70 is wired a little differently than the 1998 in this thread), which is as it should be:
my S70 ignition switch.jpg
I already jumped to a wrong conclusion and replaced my ignition switch-- too bad.

I think all this means that my problem is somewhere between the yellow/white wire from the ignition switch and the red/green wire to the starter solenoid. Am I thinking right about this?

Two more pieces of data: I jumpered the neutral safety switch connector and still got no start, which rules that switch out as the problem (I think). However, I also could not read a voltage on either wire running to the NSS connector when turning the key to position III. Is that normal?

What else is between the ignition switch and the solenoid and how can I troubleshoot it?

Thanks in advance for any help!

1999 S70 base, manual, US import model, 209,000 mi.
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Ozark Lee
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Re: No voltage from ignition to starter troubleshoot (1999 S

Post by Ozark Lee » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:15 pm

The immobilizer will keep it from starting and problems there are usually due to a faulty antenna ring that goes around the key and reads the chip. I will need to dig through the schematics for the '99 to see where in the circuit the immobilizer module is. The first of the month is backup day for my computer systems so it may take me a while. Due to the issues with Volvo legal I, as a moderator, can't post pages from the schematics. That does not, however, prevent another using from doing so.

...Lee


'94 850 N/A 5 speed
'96 Platinum Edition Turbo
Previous:
1999 V70XC - Nautic Blue - Totaled while parked.
1999 V70XC - RIP - Wrecked Parts Car.
1998 S70 T5
1996 850 N/A
1989 740 GLT
1986 740 GLT
1972 142 Grand Luxe

Whitebird
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Re: No voltage from ignition to starter troubleshoot (1999 S

Post by Whitebird » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:54 pm

"Antenna ring" and "immobilizer" gave me some search ideas. Thank you, Lee!

After some looking, here's what I tried:
- 5x lock-unlock immobilizer reset.
- Battery disconnect for reset.
- Ignition related fuses are all in order.
- You mentioned the antenna ring could be the problem. I cleaned the contacts, as suggested several places, with no improvement.

I now have 2 codes to report: P1040 and P1081. Via google:
"P1040 = ECM-9300 Clutch pedal sensor Faulty signal" -- Maybe I threw this when jumpering the neutral safety switch.
"P1081/ECM-720A = Immobiliser communication (faulty VIN code / faulty communication / no communication)" -- This could point to the antenna ring, BUT most people reporting trouble with that can start their car but then it immediately dies. Whereas I'm not getting voltage from ignition to solenoid.

I wonder, before I throw yet another $55 part at it, is there a way to test whether the antenna ring is the problem?



Whitebird
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Re: No voltage from ignition to starter troubleshoot (1999 S

Post by Whitebird » Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:59 am

I found the schematic on p. 81 of this:
1999 S70 power supply and starter system schematic.jpg


6/25 is the starter motor, with connection 2 on that being where I have no voltage.

3/1 (ignition switch), connection "50", is where I do have voltage.

2/35, the starter relay, is between. Unless I have a bad wire, pin 3 there is not getting voltage. Can anyone who knows schematics tell me why?
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Whitebird
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Re: No voltage from ignition to starter troubleshoot (1999 S

Post by Whitebird » Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:03 pm

Well, I learn more all the time. I now know from jumping the starter relay (Thanks, cn90!) that the starter turns over, so it's not the wiring on that side. I also get 12v on pin 86 of the relay, meaning the wire from the ignition switch works!

So, that leaves the starter relay itself, or the "Central locking module/alarm" (immobilizer), or the ECM.

One thing I need to try tomorrow: getting at the alarm module that jimmy57 mentions up under the dash and seeing what I can jumper.

Does anyone know a way to test the starter relay?



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Re: No voltage from ignition to starter troubleshoot (1999 S

Post by cn90 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:05 pm

Couple options:

1. Use a brand new relay, it is cheap, about $10 at dealer.

2. This is my ghetto technique.
Lift the relay up a bit to expose the 4 legs.
Get someone to help you turn the key to position III.
- You should get 12V on the primary circuit leg (85-86).
- 30 is hot all the time.
- If the relay works as designed, then you will have 12V at #87 (starter should run).

Below is the photo from my 1998 S70, you can "swap" the J relay. Just label "starter", this way you know where the relay comes from:


Image


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2005 XC90 2.5T 110K+

Whitebird
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Re: No voltage from ignition to starter troubleshoot (1999 S

Post by Whitebird » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:07 pm

I think I've narrowed my problem down to the alarm/lock module (2/76) or ECM (4/46).
cn90 wrote:2. This is my ghetto technique.
Lift the relay up a bit to expose the 4 legs. . . .
I tried this and, strangely, pin 85 was grounded (testing w/ a voltmeter w/ positive lead on the battery)-- until I turned the key to position III, then it wasn't grounded (and so the plunger switch didn't actuated to connect pins 30 and 87 and send power to the solenoid: see schematic). With the relay out, the socket for pin 85 is not grounded at all, which tells me the starter relay is (probably) fine and the alarm/lock module or ECM is definitely not doing its job.

Based on what VCA says here, my problem is not the antenna ring:
VCA wrote:It turns out that the VGLA (alarm) module can indeed inhibit start (through relay 2/35, located in the underhood electrical distribution box (not fuse box), third relay from the front), but it has nothing to do with the antenna ring -- that is tied to the immobilizer whose sole function is to send an authorization code to the ECU after the immobilizer has verified the key. So, if the alarm is sounding or the VGLA module is bad (no power to relay 2/35), or relay 2/35 is bad, or the electrical portion of the ignition switch is bad (no grounding of relay 2/35), the starter solenoid won't receive power.
I think, though, that he has those two bolded words backwards.

Now I'm really stuck because I don't think the schematics can help me go any deeper. To summarize: my problem is not the starter, nor fuses, nor neutral safety switch, nor ignition switch, nor ring antenna, nor immobilizer.

Does anyone have any ideas?



cn90
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Re: No voltage from ignition to starter troubleshoot (1999 S

Post by cn90 » Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:28 pm

If you don't care about the alarm (nobody will steal this 16-year-old thingy lol), then bypass the alarm circuit.
The link you listed above has the diagram showing you where the alarm circuit is located.
I still think you should get a new starter relay from dealer, it is cheap and eliminates one variable out of the equation.

As a test to by-pass the Alarm Module: bring fresh ground to the #85 on the Starter Relay socket (this is how the Alarm Module works, it grounds terminal #85, in the photo you posted above:
- Focus on 2/35, not 2/76. 2/35 is the Starter Relay, see my photo above.
- Lift the Starter Relay up a little bit.
- Use alligator clips and bring fresh ground to the #85 leg of the relay.
- Start engine, if engine now starts, you know the problem is in the Alarm System.

FYI: in cars w/o Alarm System, #85 on Starter Relay is grounded from factory.


Image
Last edited by cn90 on Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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Whitebird
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Re: No voltage from ignition to starter troubleshoot (1999 S

Post by Whitebird » Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:12 pm

cn90 wrote:If you don't care about the alarm (nobody will steal this 16-year-old thingy lol), then bypass the alarm circuit.
No worries there!
cn90 wrote:As a test to by-pass the Alarm Module: bring fresh ground to the #85 on the Starter Relay socket (this is how the Alarm Module works, it grounds terminal #85, in the photo you posted above:
. . .
- Start engine, if engine now starts, you know the problem is in the Alarm System.
Permanently grounding pin 85 does let the car start. I haven't wanted to go that route, though, because that disables my neutral safety switch (7/123), which seems like an accident waiting to happen on a manual.

I suppose I could rewire the neutral safety into the ignition circuit elsewhere. I'm not sure if that would be brilliant or just redneck.

Or, bite the bullet and replace the alarm/lock module and ECM, in that order. I'll look around for prices on those. Thanks for taking the time to reply, cn90!



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Re: No voltage from ignition to starter troubleshoot (1999 S

Post by cn90 » Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:23 pm

Oh, I just realized you have the manual trans.
For now, put a note on the dashboard "put in neutral before starting car".

You have 2 options:

1. Look at the Alarm Module and somehow bypass only the module, which means a jumper between B21 and B22 in the photo.
This will effectively bypass the Alarm but not the neutral safety switch.

2. Buy used Alarm Module on ebay for cheap.


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