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Volvo 850 is toe-in after accident, even with both tie rods adjusted all the way in Topic is solved

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davhaney
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Volvo 850 is toe-in after accident, even with both tie rods adjusted all the way in

Post by davhaney » Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:29 pm

1994 Volvo 850 base -- long time listener, second-time caller.

Took a minor accident: someone’s car hit the front of the front-left tire with the corner of their bumper. The force pulled apart the inner tie rod joint and knocked the tire off the rim. The intrusive enemy car also bumped the subframe directly in front of the wheel, crushing the charcoal canister, and canister's stamped steel mount on it’s way in (both canister and mount have been replaced). Photos: https://imgur.com/a/S9cLaw6

I replaced the inner and outer tie rod (Meyle, from FCP) on both sides. The parts are identical to the Meyle I previously had, and seem to fit correctly. However, even when I tighten both tie rods all the way in (back side of the wheel), the wheels remain about 10-12mm toe-in. And of course, the steering wheel is no longer “straight” at 9-3 position when wheels are pointed forward.

Things I checked:
  • 1) Rims are not bent, wheels balanced fine.
    2) Control Arm and bushing looks healthy (replaced a few years ago, not factory)
    3) Control Arm mount on subframe looks healthy (not bent)
    4) Sway bar links look good (replaced a few years ago, not factory)
    5) Brand new inner/outer tie rods on both sides
  • * It does not “look” like the subframe is bent, or shifted. I looked closely at all 4 bushings, and don’t see any evidence of shifting, motion, etc. I do assume this is the most likely culprit.

    * The steering rack “seems” secure, and unbent.

    * There does not seem to be any extra play in the wheel assembly on either side
Any other thoughts on this, second guesses, or armchair quarterbacking?
  • Should I pull the subframe and install new bushings?
    How bad is 10mm toe-in?
    Can I pull the steering wheel off, re-center, and live with this?



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Re: Volvo 850 is toe-in after accident, even with both tie rods adjusted all the way in

Post by Ozark Lee » Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:00 pm

The 10mm toe in is bad, it will eat the tires off of it.

Given the direction of the impact it may have bent the control arm and / or the strut.

...Lee


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Re: Volvo 850 is toe-in after accident, even with both tie rods adjusted all the way in

Post by jtp » Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:44 pm

That stinks man.

If you have their insurance I’d take it to the dealer ASAP. Not a body shop.

Just so many different parts that could be get messed up in non-obvious ways with that kind of impact.


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Re: Volvo 850 is toe-in after accident, even with both tie rods adjusted all the way in

Post by FLXC90 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:40 pm

jtp wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:44 pm
That stinks man.

If you have their insurance I’d take it to the dealer ASAP. Not a body shop.

Just so many different parts that could be get messed up in non-obvious ways with that kind of impact.
What he said; is this insurance, or just taking care of it yourself? I'm sure anything more than what you have done will result in a totaled car with frame and body shop labor charges. If the impact was enough to pop the inner tie-rod ball socket, I would look at replacing the rack, who knows what got stretched inside, not something I would trust anymore. Also, I would give VERY close scrutiny to the subframe. Maybe find a like car and do a whole lot of measuring and comparing. In order for the toe to change like you say, the front of the control arm is inward from its original position, it is the only dimension that would cause (relative) growth at the rear.
I would suspect a subframe straightening or replacement. But measuring would prove it.


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Re: Volvo 850 is toe-in after accident, even with both tie rods adjusted all the way in  Topic is solved

Post by chrafael » Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:34 am

Is it possible the tie rod arm on the spindle is bent?
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Re: Volvo 850 is toe-in after accident, even with both tie rods adjusted all the way in

Post by jtp » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:06 am

FLXC90 wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:40 pm
jtp wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:44 pm
That stinks man.

If you have their insurance I’d take it to the dealer ASAP. Not a body shop.

Just so many different parts that could be get messed up in non-obvious ways with that kind of impact.
What he said; is this insurance, or just taking care of it yourself? I'm sure anything more than what you have done will result in a totaled car with frame and body shop labor charges. If the impact was enough to pop the inner tie-rod ball socket, I would look at replacing the rack, who knows what got stretched inside, not something I would trust anymore. Also, I would give VERY close scrutiny to the subframe. Maybe find a like car and do a whole lot of measuring and comparing. In order for the toe to change like you say, the front of the control arm is inward from its original position, it is the only dimension that would cause (relative) growth at the rear.
I would suspect a subframe straightening or replacement. But measuring would prove it.
Ya that sounds like an avoidable nightmare.

If my car's parked and someone hits it I'm either getting their insurance to pay for it or it was my Mom. Especially in a really PIA way to diag and repair like this.

And I'm starting at the dealer. Body shops are very good at body work and often very mediocre at everything else. Suspension and steering issues like OP's main concern here would go under everything else.


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Re: Volvo 850 is toe-in after accident, even with both tie rods adjusted all the way in

Post by amblerman » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:11 am

I have a similar issue to you.
What happened to my car and the results are detailed here:
viewtopic.php?t=85192

I am currently replacing the subframe. Mine was bent. Luckily I was able to get my car aligned where the only thing out of whack was the caster. I am driving my s70 while I get a donor frame out of a donor car.

If you read the link above, you'll see that my control arm bracket was bent and I was hoping that was all there was to it. Unfortunately my mechanic confirmed the frame got twisted when my control arm twisted.

In my car, the real damage seems to be limited to the frame so I'm taking the route of replacing the frame. I hope to have that done this coming weekend .

-A



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Re: Volvo 850 is toe-in after accident, even with both tie rods adjusted all the way in

Post by FLXC90 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:20 pm

chrafael wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:34 am
Is it possible the tie rod arm on the spindle is bent?

Wow, that is a real simple thing I totally overlooked, :oops: good catch! would be easy to check, and easy to fix


Current Volvos:
1998 V70 T5, 112k sat 5 years, still in mechanical coma
2004 XC90 T6 AWD: 186k, 60 on transaxle
1998 POS70 N/A: DD/training aid, 236k but really about 240k, I think...ABS module

davhaney
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Re: Volvo 850 is toe-in after accident, even with both tie rods adjusted all the way in

Post by davhaney » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:38 pm

chrafael wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:34 am
Is it possible the tie rod arm on the spindle is bent?
Yep. I measured both sides relative to each other, and the rod arm on the spindle is pulled in about 15mm. I am not sure I would have thought of this on my own, so thank you so much for the suggestion.

As far as the insurance situation, I wasn't the driver or occupant of either vehicle, and didn't get any information from the other driver. As such, I would prefer to not involve my own insurance company -- they'd probably try to total it anyway. :-)



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