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Diary of a 17 y/o with an 850

Help, Advice and DIY Tutorials on Volvo's extremely popular car line -- Volvo's 1990s "bread and butter" cars -- powered by the ubiquitous and durable Volvo inline 5-cylinder engine.
1992 - 1997 850, 850 R, 850 T5-R, 850 T5, 850 GLT
1997 - 2000 S70, S70 AWD
1997 - 2000 V70, V70 AWD
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esl_97_850_T5
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Re: Diary of a 17 y/o with an 850

Post by esl_97_850_T5 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:43 pm

On 2018-09-08, Shihab allowed me to scan his '95 850 wagon to see its capabilities via the OBDII port.

To accomodate those who don't like to see the nitty gritty details, I'll report the results in 2 posts --
1. this brief "overview" post, and
2. a subsequent "details" post (which most people can bypass).

Overview of when to use Shihab's OBDI under-the-hood box vs. when to use Shihab's OBDII inside-the-car port...

1. Common OBDII scanning tools and software *can* be used to read/clear OBDII DTCs and OBDII Pending DTCs, and to scan the OBDII live data.
Shihab's '95 850 OBDII data looks like that of USA '96-'97 850 with Motronic 4.3.

2. Reading/clearing of DTCs for ABS, SRS, COMBI **must** be performed via the OBDI under-the-hood blinking box, since there is apparently absolutely no KWPD3B0 / D2 communication via Shihab's '95 850 inside-the-car OBDII port. Also, any further testing/controlling of ABS, SRS, and COMBI must be performed via the OBDI under-the-hood box.

3. Reading/clearing of DTCs associated with Shihab's 95 850 ECM (ie, engine ECU) can be performed either:

3a. via the OBDI box's A2 terminal, or

3b. via the OBDII port using the trio of: a) Brick-Diag Free v0.0.6.6, b) cable compatible with Brick-Diag Free and Vol-FCR, and, importantly, c) special extension cable to switch pin 7 to pin 3 before plugging in to car's OBDII port, when trio is accompanied by the following sequence:


- connect the trio just mentioned to the inside-the-car OBDII port,
- run Brick-Diag Free,
- switch "Sprache" to English,
- ensure the correct COM Port is being used on "settings" / "general settings" tab, then click "ok",
- type Shihab's VIN,
- click on vertical "manual>" bar on the left,
- change Brick-Diag Free v0.0.6.6's suggested ECU combo of "LH 3.2" / "EZ 129K" to the single ECU "Motronic 4.3",
- click on "manual>" bar again (to erase selection popup),
- **IMPORTANT** ensure ignition is at pos II (and most warning lights are on),
- ensure dark blue box in lower left has "Motronic 4.3" selected,
- click "connect",
- wait for the 3 boxes in "ECU informations" to be filled in with:
ECU number: 0261203165
SW version: 2227355826
Volvo OEM number: 6842873

- click the "error codes" tab,
- click "read",
- wait for any DTCs to appear,
- if more than 1 DTC, cycle thru them with "previous" and "next",
- click "clear", if desired,
- click "disconnect".

[The subsequent "details" post may have more detail on this Brick-Diag Free v0.0.6.6 capability to read/clear Motronic 4.3 DTCs when a pin 7-to-pin 3 switcher is used.]

3c. via the OBDII port using easily obtained OBDII scanning tools and/or software (see item 1).

Items 3a and 3b use 3-digit Volvo DTC codes, eg, 2-3-2. Whereas, item 3c uses industry standard Pxxxx codes, eg, P0172.

Three different OBDII scanning programs -- volvo850diag on Win7, xiaotec "850 OBD-II" V1.0.7 on Android, and Shihab's ??? demo app on iOS -- each reported: P0172. Whereas, Brick-Diag Free v0.0.6.6 reported: "2-3-2 Long term fuel trim, idling".

4. Reading/clearing of DTCs for AW 50-42 will probably have to be done sometimes via the OBDI under-the-hood box (see item 2 or 3a). But there may be some occasions when the OBDII scanner can read/clear those DTCs from the inside-the-car OBDII port (see item 1 or 3c). That is an unknown.

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Re: Diary of a 17 y/o with an 850

Post by esl_97_850_T5 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:59 pm

On 2018-09-08, Shihab allowed me to scan his '95 850 wagon to see its capabilities via the OBDII port.

First review the prior "Overview" post. Then continue with the details here...

A. Summary of Results:

A0. Verified some items.

- Verified VIN is YV1LW5536S2137411 (same one Shihab reported) -- both on dash near far corner of windshield, and on driver's side door decal.

- Verified some items on the driver's side door's decal.

A1. volvo850diag successfully performed OBDII scanning.

- 13 OBDII PIDs were visible [exactly the same that my now retired '97 850 T5 had].
- 0100 command showed allowed PIDs (as the OBDII standard dictates).
- 0101 command counted DTCs and showed the Readiness monitors' states.
- Shihab's single OBDII DTC (P0172) read by the 03 command.
- OBDII Pending DTCs can (probably) be read by the 07 command [there were not any on 09-08].
- The OBDII Freeze Frame read via a sequence of 02xxyy commands.
- Various pieces of the OBDII live data read by 0103, 0104, 0105, 0106, 0107, 010C, 010D, 010E, 0110, 0111, 0113, 0114 fluctuated as expected when the engine revved (and volvo850diag's "OBDII Scan" button is pressed repeatedly).

Here's their interpretation by kwpd3b0_interpreter.html:

Code: Select all

OBDII Emission PIDs Supported: ECU 1F (tranny): 1 PID supported: 01.
OBDII Emission PIDs Supported: ECU 17 (engine): 13 PIDs supported: 01,03,04,05,06,07,0C,0D,0E,10,11,13,14.
OBDII CEL/MIL OFF, # Emission DTCs = 0 for ECU 1F (tranny).
    Continuous monitoring:
        Misfire monitoring                   N/A
        Fuel system monitoring               N/A
        Comprehensive component monitoring   READY
    Non-continuous monitoring:
        Catalyst monitoring                  N/A
        Heated catalyst monitoring           N/A
        Evaporative system monitoring        N/A
        Secondary air system monitoring      N/A
        A/C system refrigerant monitoring    N/A
        Oxygen sensor monitoring             N/A
        Oxygen sensor heater monitoring      N/A
        EGR system monitoring                N/A
OBDII CEL/MIL ON, # Emission DTCs = 1 for ECU 17 (engine).
    Continuous monitoring:
        Misfire monitoring                   READY
        Fuel system monitoring               READY
        Comprehensive component monitoring   READY
    Non-continuous monitoring:
        Catalyst monitoring                  NOT READY
        Heated catalyst monitoring           N/A
        Evaporative system monitoring        READY
        Secondary air system monitoring      N/A
        A/C system refrigerant monitoring    N/A
        Oxygen sensor monitoring             READY
        Oxygen sensor heater monitoring      READY
        EGR system monitoring                READY
OBDII Emission DTCs: P0172.
OBDII Emission Pending DTCs: None.
OBDII 0103 (Fuel System #1) = 01 -> Open loop - has not yet satisfied conditions to go closed loop.
OBDII 0104 = 07     ->   2.75 % = Calculated LOAD Value.
OBDII 0105 = 6C     ->     68 C = 154 F = Coolant Temp.
OBDII 0106 = 80     ->   0.00 % = Short Term Fuel Trim.
OBDII 0107 = 81     ->  +0.78 % = Long Term Fuel Trim.
OBDII 010C = 0D 20  ->    840 rpm = Engine RPM.
OBDII 010D = 00     ->      0 km/h = 0 mph = Vehicle Speed.
OBDII 010E = 87     ->   +3.5 degrees = Ignition Timing Advance.
OBDII 0110 = 01 5E  ->   3.50 g/s = 12.6 kg/h = MAF.
OBDII 0111 = 1B     ->     11 % = Absolute Throttle Position.
OBDII 0113 = 01     -> O2S11 only (ie, only Bank 1 Sensor 1 O2 sensor present).
OBDII 0114 (A) = 81 ->   0.65 V = O2S11 Voltage.
OBDII 0114 (B) = 80 ->   0.00 % = O2S11 Short Term Fuel Trim.
OBDII 020200 = Emission Freeze Frame from DTC: P0172.
OBDII 020000 = ECU 1F (tranny): 0 FF PIDs supported: .
OBDII 020000 = ECU 17 (engine): 8 FF PIDs supported: 02,03,04,05,06,07,0C,0D.
OBDII 020300 [P0172] (FF Fuel System #1) = 10 -> Closed loop, but fault with at least one oxygen sensor - may be using single oxygen sensor for fuel control.
OBDII 020400 = 07   ->   2.75 %             = [P0172] FF Calculated LOAD Value.
OBDII 020500 = 8A   ->     98 C = 208 F     = [P0172] FF Coolant Temp.
OBDII 020600 = 8B   ->  +8.59 %             = [P0172] FF Short Term Fuel Trim.
OBDII 020700 = 84   ->  +3.12 %             = [P0172] FF Long Term Fuel Trim.
OBDII 020C00 = 0D 20->    840 rpm           = [P0172] FF Engine RPM.
OBDII 020D00 = 00   ->      0 km/h =  0 mph = [P0172] FF Vehicle Speed.
A2. volvo850diag was unable to connect to *any* of the ECUs which are KWPD3B0-conversant on '96-'98 850 / S70/V70/C70/XC70 (and which volvo850diag has previously been able to connect to on 100-200 other 850/SVC70).

- volvo850diag failed to connect to these ECUs:
51, 58, 01, 6E, 2E, 2F, 7A, 11, 41, 29, 2D, 18.

- To word it another way -- volvo850diag failed to perform any KWPD3B0 communication with these ECUs (which it has previously successfully communicated with on at least one 850 or SVC70 on at least one occasion):
01, 11, 29, 2D, 2E, 2F, 41, 51, 58, 6E, 7A.

A3. Brick-Diag Free v0.0.6.6 was able to connect to a single ECU -- (apparently) a Motronic 4.3 -- and read its DTCs, but a pin 7 to pin3 switching cable was required.

Since: a) volvo850diag failed to connect to any KWPD3B0-conversant ECUs (and hence probably does *not* have a Motronic 4.4), yet volvo850diag could communicate via the industry standard, legally mandated OBDII communication, and b) I had previous experience communicating with my '97 850 T5's Motronic 4.3 by using the triad --
Brick-Diag Free v0.0.6.6 , VAG/COM KKL cable used for Vol-FCR Demo , special jonesrh 8-pin DIP switch cable to switch OBDII pin 7 (in the cable) to pin 3 of the car's OBDII port --
in order to connect to the Motronic 4.3 (probably via KW71) and read/clear the Motronic 4.3 DTCs, and c) discerning from the OTP Volvo 850 DVD's Parts list(s) that Motronic 4.3 was used in some 850s apparently as early as 1994, but Motronic 4.4 seemed to start being used in 1996 [IIRC], I thought it was worth a try to see if Brick-Diag Free v0.0.6.6 could read/clear Motronic 4.3 DTCs in Shihab's '85 850 wagon like it could do in my '97 850 T5.

[If I had read that "split out" thread where erikv11 very clearly showed that Shihab's '95 850 probably has a Motronic 4.3, I would not have even consulted the OTP Volvo 850 DVD's parts list. The info provided by erikv11 is far more definitive.]

Also, I wanted to see how Brick-Diag Free v0.0.6.6 translated Shihab's 95 850's VIN into a list of suggested ECUs to scan.

So I plugged in a VAG/COM KKL USB2 cable (that can be used also with Vol-FCR v1.7 FTDI demo or Brick-Diag Free) into the same Win7 laptop that volvo850diag had just scanned from, determined its COM port # (by running STNterm and seeing which new COM port appeared), exited STNterm, edited the Brick-Diag Free .ini file to ensure the proper COM port # was going to be used by Brick-Diag Free, plugged in one end of my 8-pin dip switch cable into the female OBDII plug of the VAG/COM KKL cable, set the 8-pin DIP switch to switch pin 7 to pin 3, plugged the other end of the 8-pin DIP switch cable into the car's OBDII port, ran Brick-Diag Free v0.0.6.6, switched Brick-Diag Free to English, typed in Shihab's 95 850's VIN: YV1LW5536S2137411, and saw the following list of suggested ECUs:

- LH 3.2
- EZ 129K
- AW50-42
- instruments VDO
- ABS
- SRS

Since I knew Shihab's car does **NOT** have the LH 3.2 / EZ 129K combo, due to the fact his picture of the ECU box shows 2 ECUs, one of which can be verified by some Google searching to be for an automatic transmission, I knew the other ECU must control the fuel and ignition with a single ECU (like a Motronic 4.3 or Motronic 4.4 can do). I already had ruled out the Motronic 4.4 possibility due to volvo850diag's inability to connect to ECU 7A, so I opted to click on Brick-Diag Free's MANUAL slider and select the "Motronic 4.3" ECU. I then could see the following list of suggested ECUs:

- Motronic 4.3
- AW50-42
- instruments VDO
- ABS
- SRS

Then I did something similar to the following:

- Turned ignition to pos II.
- Waited a few seconds.
- Clicked "Motronic 4.3".
- Clicked "connect".
- Waited a few seconds...

Then saw the following info:

- ECU number: 0261203165
- SW version: 2227355826
- Volvo OEM number: 6842873


Voila! Brick-Diag Free v0.0.6.6 was able to connect to (presumably) Motronic 4.3.

NOTE: Someone else can verify if that info is truly for a Motronic 4.3. All I know is that specifying the "Motronic 4.3" ECU and using the pin7-to-pin3 switching cable allowed me to talk to this USA ECM of some type -- whether it is Motronic 4.3, or Motronic 4.4, or whatever.

You then click on the 2nd tab -- called "error codes", I believe.

Then click "read".

Again, Voila!

- The single DTC was read: 2-3-2 Long term fuel trim, idling.

That is highly consistent with the OBDII DTC P0172 that was seen by volvo850diag.

I did *not* try clearing that DTC, since I had not verified with Shihab that he was willing for me to do that. But I know from previous experience that Brick-Diag Free v0.0.6.6 was able to clear all DTCs on my '97 850 T5 and is able to clear (almost) all DTCs on my '98 S70 GLT. So I assume that Shihab's 95 850 (presumably) Motronic 4.3 DTC 2-3-2 could likely also be cleared by Brick-Diag Free.

I then pressed "disconnect" on one of the tabs to disconnect from Motronic 4.3.

A4. xiaotec "850 OBD-II" Android app V1.0.7 could read OBDII data, but not any KWPD3B0 data.

Disconnected the Brick-Diag Free setup, fired up an Android phone, installed OBDII Y splitter cable into car's OBDII port (strictly for the purpose of resting an attached ELM327 Bluetooth device on top of the gear shift to provide better Bluetooth communication), attached my OBDLink LX BT to the end of one leg of the OBDII Y splitter cable, ran xiaotec's "850 OBD-II" Android app V1.0.7 (recently updated in 2018-09), connected to the OBDLink LX BT, then clicked "Scan" at one time, and at another time, clicked "Live" while OBDII was the live data selection. The results reveal:

- Shihab's 95 850 could *not* perform KWPD3B0 communication via any of the physically addressed KWPD3B0 ECUs which "850 OBD-II" app tried to scan;

- Shihab's 95 850 *could* perform OBDII communication. The "850 OBD-II" app's 850log.txt log, in conjunction with its Scan Summary display and its LIVE display, reveals: a) "850 OBD-II" app scans most of the OBDII live data, but not all of it, b) the subset of OBDII live data that is displayed in a columnar format is sometimes *not* interpreted, and, interesting to me, c) showed there is a response to 0160 that I had never known about before.

B. Conclusions:

B1. Shihab's '95 850 wagon's OBDII port can be scanned by many common OBDII scanner handheld tool, or any of many software/ELM327 combos, where the software runs on iOS, Android, Windows, Linux, etc.

B2. Shihab's '95 850 wagon's OBDII port is probably useless for any KWPD3B0 / D2 communication (by Vol-FCR, volvo850diag, xiaotec's "850 OBD-II" Android app, Brick-Diag Free v0.0.6.6, mikeri's milageread, jonesrh-enhanced freediag).


B3. jonesrh-enhanced freediag might be able to perform some KW71 communication to read the presumed Motronic 4.3's live data, but that has not been tested on Shihab's '95 850.

B4. xiaotec "850 OBD-II" Android app V1.0.7 OBDII scanning has improved since V0.9.8, but is still inferior to a quality, general purpose OBDII scanning program (which is more appropriate for Shihab, I think).

B5. The response to 0160 recorded by xiaotec "850 OBD-II" V1.0.7 app:

0160 >> 01 60 48 6B 17 41 60 01 07 E5 01 FA

caused "850 OBD-II" to declare the following OBDII PIDs were supported by Shihab's 850:

ECU 17 has PIDs [68] [6E] [6F] [70] [71] [72] [73] [76] [78] [80] supported

Those are brand new PIDs to me. 0160 had always produced "NO DATA" in my '97 850 T5, and 0160 had always produced "NO DATA" in my '98 S70 GLT.

The following Wikipedia link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OBD-II_PIDs#Service_01

has some info on PIDs 0168, 016E, 016F, 0170, 0171, 0172, 0173, 0176, 0178, 0180:

0168 -- Intake air temperature sensor
016E -- Injection pressure control system
016F -- Turbocharger compressor inlet pressure
0170 -- Boost pressure control
0171 -- Variable Geometry turbo (VGT) control
0172 -- Wastegate control
0173 -- Exhaust pressure
0176 -- Turbocharger temperature
0178 -- Exhaust Gas temperature (EGT) Bank 1
0180 -- bit map of PIDs in 0181-01A0 range

And this link has some info on PID 0178 encoding:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OBD-II_PI ... _01_PID_78

Shihab's 850 OBDII PIDs in the 0168 to 0178 range might warrant some further researching, or they might give a clue as to what ECM hardware / software is really being used.

C. Suggestions:

C1. Since Shihab prefers to use his iPad rather his Android phone as the diagnostic host, and Shihab has a cheap ELM327 WIFI tool, I encouraged Shihab to simply experiment with one of the many OBDII scanning software packages that run on iOS and can also use his particular ELM327 WIFI device reliably.

C2. If any of you iOS users also use an ELM327 WIFI device, I'm sure Shihab would appreciate your feedback about what works for you.

C3. Since Shihab can use the OBDI under-the-hood connector for diagnostics of both the engine ECU [presumably a Motronic 4.3] and the other ECUs, I suggested he **NOT** pursue using Brick-Diag Free v0.0.6.6 with the "straight thru cable" (ie, VAG/COM KKL cable) and 8-pin DIP switch pin7-to-pin3 cable in order to see the 3-digit Motronic 4.3 codes. Just keep things simple.


C4. To Shihab: The OBDI's A2 plug will probably suffice for you, when you need the Motronic 4.3 Volvo 3-digit DTC info to augment the OBDII DTC or OBDII Pending DTC or OBDII Freeze Frame info, and vice versa (when the OBDII info is used to augment the Motronic 4.3 DTC info). That way you don't have to hassle with obtaining Brick-Diag Free, building the pin7-to-pin3 switching cable, buying a cable like that used for Vol-FCR, etc. You can suffice with a) your iPad, your ELM327 WIFI, and your inside-the-car OBDII port for reading/clearing OBDII DTCs and observing OBDII live data, and b) your thumb to operate the OBDI under-the-hood diagnostic tool for all other situations.

esl_97_850_T5
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Last edited by esl_97_850_T5 on Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Diary of a 17 y/o with an 850

Post by shihabafi » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:46 am

Thank you so much esl_97_850_T5,

in addition to all the help with understanding the diagnostics system of my car, he also left me with a working (Thanks for giving me a broken one AutoZone) compression tester, which I managed to use yesterday, and got the following numbers:

Cylinder 1: 225psi
Cylinder 2: 220psi
Cylinder 3: 207psi, try 2: 220psi
Cylinder 4: 225psi
Cylinder 5: 225psi

Basically I was still trying to figure out how a compression tester works, and the first one I recorded was Cylinder 3. Then once I was finished, I realized something was off, and popped it back in, and got a more proper number. This means that there's no head gasket leak... right?

But honestly, this has only raised more questions. If my head gasket is fine, why do I have coolant coming out of the radiator reservoir? (Also, another thanks to esl_97_850_T5 for leaving me with some Genuine Volvo coolant. There's something about having a Genuine Volvo part.)

Additionally, why do I have oil pooling up on top of the engine? I had plans to throw the spark plug cover back on and shine it up a bit, but I can't if I've still got issues going on in there. I know it's not the PCV system, because I've changed that already.

But the car itself, as esl_97_850_T5 stated, has stopped showing the P0117, and started showing a P0172.

Just makes you want to... \ ._. /

And since this is technically a "Diary," I think a memorable picture is a necessity.
IMG_20180908_101136 (1).jpg



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Re: Diary of a 17 y/o with an 850

Post by abscate » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:06 am

It’s either the PCVpipe or the oil filler cap putting oil on top.

It’s possible to have good compression and ahead gasket leak but rare.

It’s normal to spew coolant ona hot car without the cap off.


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Re: Diary of a 17 y/o with an 850

Post by esl_97_850_T5 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:41 am

Shihab,

I didn't think you had much oil up there. What I'd suggest is: wipe up most all the oil -- at least wipe up enough so you can see 1-2 weeks later if fresh oil has appeared, put the spark plug cover back on, go for 1-2 weeks, remove spark plug cover, reevaluate just how much is being spewed up there per 1-2 weeks of your 50 miles/day driving.

esl_97_850_T5

P.S. Thanks for the pic.


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Re: Diary of a 17 y/o with an 850

Post by shihabafi » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:07 am

SOS: I bought some engine degreaser the other day, and I used it today, since I was doing a full-wash anyways, and I let it out to dry for about one or two hours. (it's fairly cool today, and also I parked in the shade.)

And I just went to start the car up, and it seems there is some smoke coming from the back of the engine. It looks like it's coming up from the catalytic converter, but it also seems like it's coming from two places. I don't know.

What's my next move? I'm thinking just let the engine bake in the sun for the whole day and try starting it up towards the evening to see if anything's changed.

Should I let it sit the with the hood fully up or halfway or down?



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Re: Diary of a 17 y/o with an 850

Post by Clemens » Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:14 pm

That might be just some cleaner residue waiting to burn off. Did you rinse the COLD motor thoroughly with clean water? Rinse agsin and dtive a bit, the smoke should clear off.
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Re: Diary of a 17 y/o with an 850

Post by abscate » Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:10 pm

Cleaner and water will smoke for a bit. Driving it will help dry it out.
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Re: Diary of a 17 y/o with an 850

Post by wheelsup » Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:05 pm

I don't have a lot to add just stopping by and saw this. I was 15 when I first drove my 1995 Volvo wagon. I am 37 today and still driving it. First car I ever drove.

I confess I didn't read a lot just the first and last pages. If there is oil on top of your engine it's becusse it's coming out the filler cap. On older cars there is nothing that can be done, even cleaning the PCV. I took mine apart several times. Finally, in desperation, I took the dipstick out and ran some heater hose from the dipstick to under the car. This relieved the pressure. No more oil on top and much reduced RMS leakage. Caution, don't just leave the dipstick tube off or you will spray the entire engine compartment with oil. Been there done that.
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1995 850 GLT Wagon w/ 185,000 miles

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Clemens
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Re: Diary of a 17 y/o with an 850

Post by Clemens » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:47 am

wheelsup wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:05 pm
I don't have a lot to add just stopping by and saw this. I was 15 when I first drove my 1995 Volvo wagon. I am 37 today and still driving it. First car I ever drove.

I confess I didn't read a lot just the first and last pages. If there is oil on top of your engine it's becusse it's coming out the filler cap. On older cars there is nothing that can be done, even cleaning the PCV. I took mine apart several times. Finally, in desperation, I took the dipstick out and ran some heater hose from the dipstick to under the car. This relieved the pressure. No more oil on top and much reduced RMS leakage. Caution, don't just leave the dipstick tube off or you will spray the entire engine compartment with oil. Been there done that.
Yeah, you could also try to do this a bit more environmentally friendly by adding a catch can to the end of the hose. Abscate or I would use what we catch for topping off.


Summer: 1996 855 R
Winter: 1994 855 T5M
Donor: 1995 854 10V

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