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04 V70 Inconsistent Start Problem Topic is solved

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swirskai
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04 V70 Inconsistent Start Problem

Post by swirskai » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:29 am

2004 V70, 270,054 mileage

Went out to start the car, the starter cranked and the engine struggled to idle basically missing on multiple cylinders even if I gave it gas. Then after ~20 seconds the car idles normally and drove fine. The best description of the symptom is when your alternator goes, and power in the car decreases and injector begin not firing. It basically seems like the injectors are firing, or there is a ignition system problem.

The next day I went out to start the car and the same thing happen except it wouldn't even idle, even with gas. I took the battery out, checked it (dead but a good battery) and put it back and jump started the car. Then I checked the alternator by removing the positive terminal while running, worked fine. That night I unhooked the positive terminal to see if there was by chance a short in the system.

The next morning I went out and the same problem occurred, and believing the battery was just old I bought I new one, the car started fine. 2 hours later the same problem happening, and the car wouldn't start with the new battery or a jump start. I let the car sit for a 1 day, and the problem happened after one try, and the 2nd try the car started and ran normally.

Can anyone point me in a good direction? I'm at college, with a basic set of metric wrenches/sockets and limited funds. Connecting wires, coil packs/distributor cap, fuel injectors, throttle body, all seem to be possible culprits.


Also, I've read the module display from the DASH with the following having "DTC SET":

BCM, AUM, CEM, DDM, CCM, PDM, PSM, UEM



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abscate
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Re: 04 V70 Inconsistent Start Problem

Post by abscate » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:47 am

Then I checked the alternator by removing the positive terminal while running, worked fine. That night I unhooked the positive terminal to see if there was by chance a short in the system.
Yikes, dont do this. These cars have a lot of processors that don't like not having reference voltages.

Test alternator about with a voltmeter, first battery voltage at rest, then start and see if the alternator lifts the voltage up to the >13V to take the load, then put the lights on and see how it does with load.

How many miles are on the plugs and coils? These are 50k and 100k replacement items, respectively, so at 270k you might be due.

The fuel system is best checked with looking at the fuel pressure when you get the poor/no start.

Maybe someone close to you ....Upstate, western, southern tier, or North Country?
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Re: 04 V70 Inconsistent Start Problem

Post by June » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:16 am

abscate wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:47 am
Then I checked the alternator by removing the positive terminal while running, worked fine. That night I unhooked the positive terminal to see if there was by chance a short in the system.
Yikes, dont do this. These cars have a lot of processors that don't like not having reference voltages.

Test alternator about with a voltmeter, first battery voltage at rest, then start and see if the alternator lifts the voltage up to the >13V to take the load, then put the lights on and see how it does with load.

How many miles are on the plugs and coils? These are 50k and 100k replacement items, respectively, so at 270k you might be due.

The fuel system is best checked with looking at the fuel pressure when you get the poor/no start.

Maybe someone close to you ....Upstate, western, southern tier, or North Country?
Abscate I had a intermittent start problem usually when cold no engine light or code. It was I believe called a crank sensor. On my 2004 S80 was located on the transmission. It was explained that the magnet gets a bad connection when cold not giving a constant signal and expands when hot to give a good constant signal causing hard starting in the morning or after cooling. Please chime in. I would have to look at my records for the repair. June


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Re: 04 V70 Inconsistent Start Problem

Post by oragex » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:30 am

That is a lot of miles so plenty of things may be the culprit. From what I gather, the engine has both a problem starting and also struggles to keep the idle for a few seconds

For the idling part, I'm thinking, normally these engines keep a higher rpm for about 10 seconds to warm up the catalytic converter, maybe there is an issue related with this ECU mode, but what would cause it is another story.. Just a random thing, maybe undo the MAF before starting.

Another random thought, maybe look at the timing belt tensioner, see what the small needle does when the engine starts shaking. .

The 2004 also had the CEM issue (google up), I'm afraid this may be an expensive fix, may try looking with a flash light for traces of water on the surface of the CEM module

For the start part, look at all power wires (red thick ones) and their connections, tighten or clean any corrosion, look for any cracks near the battery and the starter. While at the starter, there is a known issue with the small wire getting corroded and cracking where it connects www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhNawwOORiM

You may as well use a cheap multimeter and measure the voltage with the engine at idle, it should be close to 14.5 after starting in the morning, and about 13.7v after driving for a while. May also use one of these things www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVDHzTkjHlc
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Re: 04 V70 Inconsistent Start Problem

Post by swirskai » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:05 am

abscate wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:47 am

Yikes, dont do this. These cars have a lot of processors that don't like not having reference voltages.

Test alternator about with a voltmeter, first battery voltage at rest, then start and see if the alternator lifts the voltage up to the >13V to take the load, then put the lights on and see how it does with load.

How many miles are on the plugs and coils? These are 50k and 100k replacement items, respectively, so at 270k you might be due.

The fuel system is best checked with looking at the fuel pressure when you get the poor/no start.

Maybe someone close to you ....Upstate, western, southern tier, or North Country?
I left the ground connect in both instances (the overnight test and running test) knowing that I risk damage to every electrical component. I believed the reference voltage was 0. But either way, I still here you out entirely and understand that is a "backwoods" technique. I will get a volt meter, I'm just not home and need to borrow.

In response to oragex and June: I want to see if what you (June) mentioned is the culprit before I start with (Oragex) diagnostics. As in I need to explain more, the car struggles to reach the initial high RPM. The 1st time it happened, it held an inconsistent idle before returning to normal idle. Otherwise, the car can't reach the initial RPM like the coils aren't firing.

Another characteristic, the serpentine belt needs to be tightened. I'm mechanically inclined, but where is good diagram literature on this? I will double check the timing belt, but incredibly that was done the 2nd time only 10k miles ago. The oil pan on the the car was replaced at 190k, and the oil pan cleaned again about 12k miles ago. The amount of shaving that have come from the pan/ filter amount in the cups range, and mechanics are amazing the car runs. I took over the car at 262k from my Dad, who drove it generally in the Tri-Lakes (Lake Placid) area of the ADK's for its life after ~140k. He complained of oil burning and steering rack leaks, both of which have stopped now with oil changes every 2-3k miles and a filler for the seal on the steering rack. The ABS sensor/ module began firing when turning, so I removed the entire fuse about 8k miles ago with no noticeable ramifications yet (could this hurt anything?).

As for unplugging the MAF, I'm willing but not sure or ready how to do that. The CEM being bad sounds like more of a 2003 and before problem (hopefully!!). I am ordering the cable to read the codes from my laptop as well to try and make this easier, hopefully I'm not overwhelmed.



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Re: 04 V70 Inconsistent Start Problem

Post by abscate » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:31 pm

Hmmm...North Country. Profesor Roy in Physics might loan you a VOM if you tell him I (Code name Schultz) sent you. Or he might throw you off the building.

If the serp belt is loose, you've found one of your problems. These belts self tension, and if that isnt right, one of the pulleys or tensioner is bad and needs replacing. With a loose belt, the alternator won't charge the battery

These cars hate low voltage - and you will get a Christmas tree (Kwanza Bush?) of error codes with low voltage.
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Re: 04 V70 Inconsistent Start Problem

Post by swirskai » Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:01 pm

abscate wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:31 pm
Hmmm...North Country. Profesor Roy in Physics might loan you a VOM if you tell him I (Code name Schultz) sent you. Or he might throw you off the building.

If the serp belt is loose, you've found one of your problems. These belts self tension, and if that isnt right, one of the pulleys or tensioner is bad and needs replacing. With a loose belt, the alternator won't charge the battery

These cars hate low voltage - and you will get a Christmas tree (Kwanza Bush?) of error codes with low voltage.
I had professor Roy in physics (NWS class of 15'), and love using VOM as we use labview, voltage DAQ's, and matlab to learn how to effectively record data. I competitively ski raced, specifically enjoyed speed events (downhill, super-g), and Mr. Roy and I had a great relationship through rockets, high speed olympic sports, and physics.

However, I don't have the mechanic experience to know how to use a VOM to test sensors, a major problem being loads of rubber and plastic everywhere that is brittle, fragile, and I have little experience matching wiring diagrams to proper wires for measurements. I do own 2, and have access to plenty through school.

This past weekend, I was able to get parts shipped in and start trying things, regardless of the bad codes given to me by Autozone. I did all 5 plugs and coils packs, the fuel pressure sensor (on the fuel rail), and the crank sensor with the same problem prevailing. Here is an interesting diagnostic event, directly upon finishing the coils:
1) turned on the car to see if any change, with spark/coil cover off.
2) No change, the car still attempted to start to 1500 rpm, but either barely held idle or completely cut out upon cranking (2-4 second window). No change if gas pedal is pumped.
3) After cycling the key (crank once, remove from ignition, wait 10 sec) sevel times the car started.
4) Idled for 10 minutes, and shut off to finish the job. Put the coil covers on, and upon trying to start the car, even cycling the key wouldn't allow the car to run, as it held low rough idle (300-500 rpm). Out of basic common sense, I simply took off the coil cover and the car started 2 cranks later.
5) I then drove the car back to Potsdam and had a local shop (not the best with foreign cars) give me a code readout yeilding P0089

I am now leaning towards the cam sensors on the right side of the top of the engine. The local car place as well as online sources claim it could be the fuel pump control module on top of the tank, the pump itself, or the filter or a combination of these, all of which require dropping the tank. I have doubts about the pump, filter, and control module because even after cranking the car, there seems to be plenty (I haven't measure, but the schrader valve misted gas).

Any thoughts?



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Re: 04 V70 Inconsistent Start Problem

Post by RickHaleParker » Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:56 pm

P0089 = ECM-261A Fuel pressure system. Faulty signal

Diagnostic trouble code (DTC) information ECM-261A

Condition
The engine control module (ECM) checks the difference between the requested pressure and the actual pressure in the fuel rail.
Diagnostic trouble code (DTC) ECM-261A is stored in the engine control module (ECM) if the engine control module (ECM) registers that the difference between the requested pressure and the actual pressure is too great.
Diagnostic trouble code (DTC) ECM-261A can be diagnosed when the engine is running.

Substitute value
The fuel pump (FP) shuts down in event of large deviations in fuel pressure.

Possible source
  • The relief valve in the pump has jammed (defective pump)
    Leakage in the fuel lines to the fuel rail
    Defective fuel pressure sensor
    Defective fuel pump (FP).
Fault symptoms
The engine fails to start
The engine cuts out
The engine misfires.
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Re: 04 V70 Inconsistent Start Problem

Post by 537playing » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:48 pm

When trying to start the car does your RPM fluctuate? If so, then replace your starter. It fixed my situation.



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Re: 04 V70 Inconsistent Start Problem

Post by abscate » Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:14 pm

You need to measure the fuel pressure at the Schrader with a borrowed Autzone gauge to diagnose the fuel system

It has To be right on these cars.

Good intuition on the local car guys, they don’t know Volvo too well. A Pump electronic Module OR PEM I still removable from underneath without dropping tank. Details are in a thread I did on my 2005 about two years back...search under 2005 V70 NAM56 PEM to find!
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swirskai


1 SWMBO for 30 years
2 Volvos
3 VWs
4 Careers
5 cats/dogs/gears
6 Perfect Ladies in waiting
7 Drivers
8 Boats- with a big pointy metal thing on top

1999 V70 T5M 56 2005 V70 NA M56 VWs BMW

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