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2007 S60 T5 AT - engine mgt A Confusing Set of Symptoms

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mikestr
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2007 S60 T5 AT - engine mgt A Confusing Set of Symptoms

Post by mikestr » Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:00 am

Hi everyone,

First-time posting here or on any automotive forum, so be gentle with me. I have a 2007 S60 T5 with 5-speed (Aisin-Warner) Geartronic tranny and about 185K miles. Beginning 2-3 years ago I started seeing the Reduced Engine Performance light. Its first appearance was on the highway on a moderately warm day when making a long, banking turn. There were no symptoms other than the light. Soon, however, the car, upon sitting in the sun, would give the warning upon startup and go into limp home mode. Restarting would clear it and the car would drive normally. I did a lot of the usual routine things one might do with a car of this age: replaced plugs and coils, fuel and air filters. A vacuum leak was fixed, the throttle body cleaned. This helped for a while but the problem came back, though the limp home mode was far less frequent. The problem now typically occurs at night or on cold mornings. The error code is P2111, throttle actuator stuck open. I removed the ECM and TCU , cleaned the contact pins with Deoxit, and reseated them. Slight reprieve and then recurrence. On the dealer's recommendation, which seemed sensible based on my reading, the wire harness connecting the ECM and throttle body was replaced. This made no difference, unfortunately.

Some time after this first problem began a second one developed: In stop and go traffic the transmission began to shift erratically, sometimes slamming into gear at low speeds. Once, after a particularly hard shift going uphill I got a transmission service warning light. That was nearly two years ago; it never returned. I had the fluid flushed and refilled by a Volvo specialist using a system dedicated to the task. Shifting improved overall but still gives fits in city driving. One observation I made was that in manual mode the shifts are nearly flawless. The other day I made it all the way up San Francisco's Gough St. from Van Ness to California, with no problem at all. Anyone familiar with this street knows that it's a real torture test for a transmission, torque converter, or clutch (for those brave enough to attempt it with manual transmission), a brutally steep climb with multiple stops along the way. In auto mode in this car I might have been in real peril. The other observation is that accompanying this poor shifting (or the other way around) is invariably sputtering, herky-jerky acceleration. This occurs while in gear, even in manual mode, between shifts. It's not slipping; it's the engine cutting out. It seems quite independent of the transmission, but both problems are triggered by stop-and-go driving, even after only a few blocks of it. Also: I never get an error code or warning light for this problem.

So what say you, my Volvo mavens? Is this all actually a single problem, or two? Does it all trace back to the famously reliable and supposedly cleaned Bosch throttle unit? To the equally famously reliable ECM and TCU? To the supposedly new and snug ECM harness? Do I have a lousy transmission valve body in spite of the ability to shift perfectly in manual mode or any time except after the brakes have repeatedly been applied? Or is it possibly an overlooked shaky electrical connection among the hundreds under the hood? There are no other symptoms than those I've mentioned--no overheating, no noises, no difficulty starting the engine, no smoke or smells. And the car runs like a demon when not in traffic.

I know it's tempting to guess--hey, what fun are forums without the shotgun spray of hunches and oft-repeated but misapplied advice? But try to resist--I'm already an expert at amateur diagnosis. No, I need either a real pro, someone who knows these cars deeply, sees beneath mere appearances to the hidden patterns and connections--a real Volvo whisperer--or anyone who has had AND solved the same or very similar problems. Any takers?

Thanks for reading.

Mike
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Re: A Confusing Set of Symptoms

Post by RickHaleParker » Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:52 am

mikestr wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:00 am
The error code is P2111, throttle actuator stuck open. I removed the ECM and TCU , cleaned the contact pins with Deoxit, and reseated them. Slight reprieve and then recurrence. On the dealer's recommendation, which seemed sensible based on my reading, the wire harness connecting the ECM and throttle body was replaced. This made no difference, unfortunately.
Should of cleaned the crud out of the inside of the throttle unit while you where at it.
It does not take much for the butterfly to get sticky.
Also check the wiring in the throttle unit.

P2111 = ECM-925D or ECM-925C Electronic throttle unit. Signal too low or signal too high.

Diagnostic trouble code (DTC) information ECM-925D (low) & ECM-925C (high).

Condition
The diagnostic trouble code (DTC) is stored if the engine control module (ECM) registers that the movement of the throttle is impeded, or that the return spring in the throttle unit is not functioning correctly, when attempting to adapt the electronic throttle unit.

Substitute value
Depending on the fault, the engine control module (ECM) can cut off the supply to the damper motor in the electronic throttle unit. The throttle will then attempt to set itself to the return position.

Possible source
  • 1.The throttle is sticking or is blocked (e.g. oil film, dust)
    2. Contact resistance or oxidation in the terminals between the engine control module (ECM) and the electronic throttle unit.
    3. Open-circuit, short-circuit to ground or short-circuit to supply voltage in the wiring for the damper motor in the throttle unit
    4. Short-circuit to each other in the wiring for the damper motor in the electronic throttle unit
    5. Damaged throttle unit.
Fault symptoms
Malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) lit
Poor performance.
--------
Platform: P80 1998 C70, B5234T3, 16T, AW50-42, Bosch Motronic 4.4, Special Edition package, Plant: Uddevalla Sweden.
Platform: X40 (Nedcar) 2003 S40, B4204T3, 14T twin scroll AW55-50/51SN, Siemens EMS 2000. Plant: Born Netherlands.
Platform P2 2005 XC90 T6 Executive, B6294T, 4T65 AWD, Bosch Motronic 7.0, Plant Torslanda Sweden.
Platform P2 2004 S60R, B2524T4, AW50/51 AWD, Bosch Motronic 7.0, BorgWarner K24 turbocharger, Plant Ghent Belgium.

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Re: A Confusing Set of Symptoms

Post by abscate » Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:13 am

Definitely worth a throttle body cleaning, let’s see some pictures of that if you can. You may have to pm them to me to post.

Worst case, a new Bosch throttle body is bolt on , and not too expensive

And, kudos to your thoughtfully written and punctuated post.
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Re: A Confusing Set of Symptoms

Post by BlackBart » Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:52 am

abscate wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:13 am
And, kudos to your thoughtfully written and punctuated post.
I especially like the “shotgun spray of hunches...”
Last edited by BlackBart on Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Confusing Set of Symptoms

Post by mikestr » Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:46 pm

I understand the advice that I "should of [sic] cleaned the throttle body," which is why I wrote, in the first paragraph: "A vacuum leak was fixed, the throttle body cleaned."

So, in my shoes, having been told that this was done and still experiencing the same symptoms as before, what would you surmise? Let me run my guess by you guys: I was ill-served, and that the cleaning was superficial. The charge for it was suspiciously low: They billed only $75 extra for this. Doesn't a proper cleaning require removal of the throttle unit, and serious elbow grease at the bench? I would expect that to justify a larger bill. I'm guessing that they simply sprayed some cleaner on the unit while it was in place, wiped off the throttle plate of obvious crud, and called it a day. In fact, what they wanted to do without even looking at it was sell me a whole new throttle unit, and their heart simply wasn't in the task.

Then I was ill served again by the dealership, who also seemed to "know" what the problem was without performing any targeted testing. Now for all the effort of replacing the harness and redoing all those pins in the plug they might have thought to remove the throttle while they were staring directly at it (which I cannot do with this turbo engine do to its layout) and give it a thorough inspection and cleaning. So I'll take Rick's advice very much to heart but redirect it (with his permission) at the dealer: "YOU should have cleaned the throttle body before anything else, you (fill in the epithet)!" The service manager did seem embarrassed when I returned with the original complaint, so wouldn't it behoove me to leverage my position as someone who paid a big bill for essentially nothing to lean on them to go back in and properly service the throttle body as they should have done in the first instance--and do it for free, damn it? That's a question of both ethics and strategy--advice welcome from all comers on this one.

Next I would like ask Rick, Abscate, and other experts: Is it reasonable to connect the jerky acceleration and funky shifting in stop-and-go traffic (but not otherwise)--which does not produce the P2111 error message --with the appearance of that message when the engine is cold (or sometimes having sat in warm weather)? Two sides of the same coin? Could it be that the actuator is really sticky when it is cold, so it triggers the code, but still sticky enough--hypothesizing, mind you--that it simply can't open and close quickly enough to cope with repeated signals to accelerate and decelerate in quick succession, perhaps confusing the ECM? I'm assuming that the P2111 error is literal: For just a moment that cold throttle is actually stuck open, and that's all it takes to get that warning. And the rest of the time it's sticky or sluggish enough to cause trouble in stop-and-go driving but not truly "stuck" enough to trigger a code. Is this not only reasonable but even likely? We humans like simple, single answers to life's problems, so I don't want to kid myself--but maybe I'm right in this case? Thanks to Rick to quoting the official error description in full; it made me think.

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Re: A Confusing Set of Symptoms

Post by mikestr » Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:01 pm

Abscate's praise of my copy editing skills was misplaced: "do to" should be "due to." I apologize to all.

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Re: A Confusing Set of Symptoms

Post by oragex » Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:26 am

I didn't read through all, but as mentioned above, try removing (quite some work) the tb assembly, then open the plastic cover - 4 metal clips, and inspect the gears inside. See if there's play in any gears. May try to put a slight amount of silicone grease on the gears. Have battery disconnected, and allow for about 1 min for recalibration with the key in POS II

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Re: A Confusing Set of Symptoms

Post by RickHaleParker » Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:53 am

mikestr wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:46 pm
I understand the advice that I "should of [sic] cleaned the throttle body," which is why I wrote, in the first paragraph: "A vacuum leak was fixed, the throttle body cleaned."
That does it, I'm not even going to try picking through a run-on from now on.
--------
Platform: P80 1998 C70, B5234T3, 16T, AW50-42, Bosch Motronic 4.4, Special Edition package, Plant: Uddevalla Sweden.
Platform: X40 (Nedcar) 2003 S40, B4204T3, 14T twin scroll AW55-50/51SN, Siemens EMS 2000. Plant: Born Netherlands.
Platform P2 2005 XC90 T6 Executive, B6294T, 4T65 AWD, Bosch Motronic 7.0, Plant Torslanda Sweden.
Platform P2 2004 S60R, B2524T4, AW50/51 AWD, Bosch Motronic 7.0, BorgWarner K24 turbocharger, Plant Ghent Belgium.

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Re: A Confusing Set of Symptoms

Post by chrism » Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:41 pm

When you re-seated the ECM and TCM did you get the little pink latches completely slid back into the locked position?

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Re: A Confusing Set of Symptoms

Post by mikestr » Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:07 am

To Rick: That is not a run-on, actually, but rather a complex sentence, i.e., one with a dependent clause. That being said, your information and advice were spot-on, and I really appreciate it.

To chrism: Oh yes, I made sure the latches were all the way back in place. Even with the dedicated tool, I found it not so easy to move them. But remember, I did this long after the symptoms appeared, and they persisted afterward.

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