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2004 xc70 jerk shifting into reverse, with new valve body

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arrrxivvv
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2004 xc70 jerk shifting into reverse, with new valve body

Post by arrrxivvv » Mon May 25, 2020 11:48 am

I have a 2004 xc70 with 188000 miles that jerks when shifting into reverse (from P, D, or N). It seems that releasing the brake pedal immediately after the shifting will reduce the jerks a bit. Sometimes it also jerks when re-accelerate after coasting and slowing down but not to a complete stop, when it seems to be in 2nd gear (I checked by switching into manual mode quickly and back, seems that the car is in 2nd gear). All the upshifts and downshifts are fine, while shifting into drive produces a very slight jolt/shake that is barely noticeable. There is no code.

The car used to shift alright when cold but poorly once warmed up (almost all upshift and downshift), mostly cured after replacing the valve body. Now only the problems mentioned above remains, the condition the same regardless of temperature. I wonder what may be the reason of the remaining problems? I understands that there could be multiple possibilities, so would like to hear your experiences, and what they would probably check if I take it to a mechanic.

For further diagnostics, should I take it to a transmission shop instead of a normal mechanic shop?


I did transmission fluid drain and fill several times before valve body replacement, about 800 miles ago when I bought the car, the fluid that came out the first time was pretty black. I also replaced 4 out of 5 engine/transmission mounts, except for the lower rear one near the turbo. The sway bar end link boots are torn, front left and rear right shocks are leaking, strut mount bearing possibly torn, if that's relevant.

For the valve body replacement, I installed a new GM ACDelco valve body following this thread:
https://www.volvoxc.com/forums/showthre ... -body-part
and Astro's valve body replacement guide. Then I filled the fluid and checked that it's within the hot range when the transmission fluid temperature is at about 85 C, temperature checked using an iCarSoft Volvo scanner. After that transmission adaptation using VIDA was done. Please let me know if any other detail would be helpful, thank you.
Last edited by arrrxivvv on Mon May 25, 2020 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
04 XC70 180k

firstv70volvo
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Re: 2004 xc70 jerk shifting into reverse, with new valve body

Post by firstv70volvo » Mon May 25, 2020 12:48 pm

Which adaptation was done? Read about the two different adaptation modes as explained by Botbasher here...

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=81188&start=10

Does your transmission whine at all, which would be an indication the filter may be clogged up? Any codes?

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Re: 2004 xc70 jerk shifting into reverse, with new valve body

Post by arrrxivvv » Mon May 25, 2020 1:13 pm

The adaptation is the one where I drive the car in various different rpms, and the orange triangle would light when the upshifts and downshifts are learned.
I don't think the transmission whines, but I will pay attention to it next time I drive. There is no code at all.
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Re: 2004 xc70 jerk shifting into reverse, with new valve body

Post by firstv70volvo » Mon May 25, 2020 1:56 pm

arrrxivvv wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:13 pm
The adaptation is the one where I drive the car in various different rpms, and the orange triangle would light when the upshifts and downshifts are learned.
I don't think the transmission whines, but I will pay attention to it next time I drive. There is no code at all.
I would think the control module adaptation (what you did) would be the better one after a valve body change. Did you do the adapt yourself? The reason I ask is to know for sure the adapt was completed successfully. I'm no expert on this but I've read if the adapt wasn't completed fully you'll have shifting problems. How did the transmission shift after the valve body replacement and before adaptation? Did you have a harsh reverse initial engagement before the adapt?

When my transmission filter clogged a harsh PN or D to reverse was one of the symptoms and why I asked about the transmission whine. The whining sound was constant and changed with engine revs and most noticeable when first starting the car and fluid was cold. It would get better (lower to no whining noise) as the ATF warmed up.

I've attached a good description of initial shift engagements, what happens and you'll see it mentions adjusting the solenoids but with a new valve body and solenoids it should be able to adapt and provide decent garage shifts.
Attachments
APR_12_Shift_Pointers_Proof.pdf
(1011.88 KiB) Downloaded 29 times
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Re: 2004 xc70 jerk shifting into reverse, with new valve body

Post by arrrxivvv » Mon May 25, 2020 2:39 pm

Thank you firstv70volvo I will look into that.
The upshifts and downshifts are fine immediately after valve body replacement, before the adaptation, and the reverse jerk was present before and after the adaptation, and before the valve body replacement.
I did the adaptation myself, including upshifts, downshifts and garage shifts. I believe I saw the orange triangle light for each shift, but since I'm not a professional it is possible that I missed some of them. However I'm pretty sure that I saw the triangle light after several N->R shifts.
If it's the filter, how did you resolve your problem? As I understand the filter is inside the transmission and not easily replaceable?
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Re: 2004 xc70 jerk shifting into reverse, with new valve body

Post by firstv70volvo » Mon May 25, 2020 5:48 pm

arrrxivvv wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 2:39 pm
Thank you firstv70volvo I will look into that.
The upshifts and downshifts are fine immediately after valve body replacement, before the adaptation, and the reverse jerk was present before and after the adaptation, and before the valve body replacement.
I did the adaptation myself, including upshifts, downshifts and garage shifts. I believe I saw the orange triangle light for each shift, but since I'm not a professional it is possible that I missed some of them. However I'm pretty sure that I saw the triangle light after several N->R shifts.
If it's the filter, how did you resolve your problem? As I understand the filter is inside the transmission and not easily replaceable?
With the reverse jerk still there after all that you've done then there could be something wrong internally with the transmission. When you shift into reverse it applies Low/Reverse brake clutch (B3) and the direct clutch (C2). The B5 1-2 reverse brake clutch is already applied so it's only the B3 and C2 clutches that are applied when selecting reverse. The direct clutch C2 is also applied in 5th gear and if the 4-5 and 5-4 shifts are okay then I would think the C2 clutch is doing okay. I'm not sure if badly worn frictions in the B3 clutch would cause a reverse jerk though.

Based on not having other symptoms it doesn't sound like you're filter is clogged up, when it's clogged you have other problems too. I did successfully clean my filter through a hole drilled in the bottom of the case but that requires a drilling tapping the case, which I did because I was going to do that a last resort to keep my car rolling for a while longer. I then decided to rebuild the transmission and there was some well worn frictions in my transmission and the reason for the clogged filter. At any rate you can't replace the filter unless the cases are split. My transmission only had 105K miles on it but it was also a dealer replaced transmission and I don't know how well they remanufactured the transmission.

For your problem my only suggestions at this point is to listen for any whine coming the transmission and possibly consider another adapt, which is likely a long shot but would be a double check everything adapted successfully. Do you have the ViDA DICE to reset this yourself? How long did it take you to complete the adapt? I'm curious because I'm considering doing this for my rebuilt transmission but waiting for the DICE tool. It seems like one of the biggest challenge to do the adapt is finding a road long enough and with little to no traffic to do it safely.

How driveable is you car now? Do you have any concerns driving the car with the way it's shifting now?

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Re: 2004 xc70 jerk shifting into reverse, with new valve body

Post by vtl » Mon May 25, 2020 9:16 pm

Check your collar sleeve, it may be almost stripped. Clunk on acceleration after coasting is one of signs.

Also check all CV joints for play: axles, propeller shaft...
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arrrxivvv
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Re: 2004 xc70 jerk shifting into reverse, with new valve body

Post by SuperHerman » Mon May 25, 2020 9:38 pm

I did not read the entire post you linked regarding the GM VB swap. So I will ask - did you adjust any of the solenoids before install or did you install them as provided?

I ask this b/c when I rebuilt my 2001 XC70 VB with the TransGo kit there were adjustments on the solenoids which are used to fine tune. As I recall one counted the turns and set the solenoid back to that state after the rebuild. I did this and had zero issues.

I would back up and do a bit of research. There are descriptions of which solenoid perform which functions - a matrix chart. Find the chart, it is out there as I have seen it, and match your problems to the relevant solenoids and see if you can narrow it down to an offending solenoid or two. Your issue could be as simple as one or two solenoids are not tuned to handle the correct pressure (either too low or too high). The pdf linked above should also provide some guidance if you figure out which solenoid is doing what in each circuit.

When repair shops open up and rebuild valve bodies many times they have to go back in and adjust the solenoid(s) to get the correct pressure. Some shops make custom valve body cases by drilling out the valve cover and installing removable rubber grommets that they use to make the back and forth adjustments - much easier than tearing the entire area apart to do the same. Once the valve body is fully adjusted they remove their custom valve body cover and install the correct one.

I hope you used a gasket rather than RTV as it makes going in and out much easier. If you did not and plan on going in again, I would recommend it ($10 gasket).

I am not saying this is your problem, but if the transmission did not have the problems you are now experiencing before I would trouble shoot before saying you have a bad hard part (not valve body related).
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Re: 2004 xc70 jerk shifting into reverse, with new valve body

Post by firstv70volvo » Mon May 25, 2020 10:42 pm

SuperHerman wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 9:38 pm
I did not read the entire post you linked regarding the GM VB swap. So I will ask - did you adjust any of the solenoids before install or did you install them as provided?

I ask this b/c when I rebuilt my 2001 XC70 VB with the TransGo kit there were adjustments on the solenoids which are used to fine tune. As I recall one counted the turns and set the solenoid back to that state after the rebuild. I did this and had zero issues.

I would back up and do a bit of research. There are descriptions of which solenoid perform which functions - a matrix chart. Find the chart, it is out there as I have seen it, and match your problems to the relevant solenoids and see if you can narrow it down to an offending solenoid or two. Your issue could be as simple as one or two solenoids are not tuned to handle the correct pressure (either too low or too high). The pdf linked above should also provide some guidance if you figure out which solenoid is doing what in each circuit.

When repair shops open up and rebuild valve bodies many times they have to go back in and adjust the solenoid(s) to get the correct pressure. Some shops make custom valve body cases by drilling out the valve cover and installing removable rubber grommets that they use to make the back and forth adjustments - much easier than tearing the entire area apart to do the same. Once the valve body is fully adjusted they remove their custom valve body cover and install the correct one.

I hope you used a gasket rather than RTV as it makes going in and out much easier. If you did not and plan on going in again, I would recommend it ($10 gasket).

I am not saying this is your problem, but if the transmission did not have the problems you are now experiencing before I would trouble shoot before saying you have a bad hard part (not valve body related).
The new GM valve bodies are an OEM part, manufactured by Aisin and have factory calibrated solenoids. They should require no adjustment if the rest of the transmission is sound, the adapt procedure should be enough to fine tune the shifting.

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Re: 2004 xc70 jerk shifting into reverse, with new valve body

Post by arrrxivvv » Mon May 25, 2020 10:50 pm

Thank you all for the replies.

To firstv70volvo, I have done some stop and go, high way, and steep uphill/downhill, and the car drive pretty fine. It also move normally in reverse after the clunk when shifting into R. I did the adaptation myself using my VIDA DICE, and spent probably more than an hour at 1am in a wide, long and straight road. I think except for finding a long road, it's also important that you can stop freely anytime, since to upshift and downshift you need to come to a stop, then accelerate, and repeat, so in the low rpm upshifts stopping in the middle of the road was the biggest problem. Fortunately at 1am the road was pretty empty, and with multiple lanes I'm not really blocking the traffic. Also I don't notice too much difference after the adaptation.

To vtl, is the collar sleeve the splines part that mates the transmission and angle gear? Is it possible to inspect it without disassembling parts? Also is it going to worsen or become dangerous if ignored? I saw some instructions on angle gear collar replacement:
http://www.vpcuk.org/forums/showthread. ... -2004-S60R
looks pretty challenging.

To SuperHerman, I installed the valve body as is without adjustment. I believe it is a brand new valve body assembly, not rebuilt ones, that comes with its own solenoids. It's wrapped in an Aisin packaging with a part number and Made In Japan labels, and some Confirmation of Inspection slip written in both Japanese and English. I think GM bought them from Aisin as "transmission overhaul kit" or something like that. I thought if it's an entire valve body instead of just switching out the solenoids, they can test the solenoids on a test bench before fitting it onto the car, so that we don't need to adjust them afterwards, but I might be wrong, or maybe Volvo require slightly different adjustment from GM, and could probably give it a try. I did use a Nissan gasket for the pan as you mentioned, I can imagine that using RTV would be quite a pain. Also these two problems were present before the valve body replacement, and didn't change after that.

I'm actually fine with how the car drives now, but concerned that since the valve body didn't cure these problems, it may be some more serious mechanical issues that can get worse or dangerous if I keep driving the car. If it's just a nuisance I may as well live with it, but I guess it's rarely the case when it comes to car problems.

I also have no experience with transmission repairs by professional shops. How much diagnostics can they do with the trans still on the car? I heard they can do some line pressure testing through some pressure taps. And if there is a mechanical problem, does the cost depend on how big the problem is, or as long as transmission need to come off and be taken apart it would pretty much cost the same?

Thanks for everyone's input.
04 XC70 180k

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