850Turbo 1996 won't start, tried two rebuilt starters

green850T · Post by **green850T** » 26 Jan 2010, 12:31

1996 Volvo 850 Turbo Sedan starter problem(s): No engine codes

· Original starter, ~190K miles: Initially we noticed that the solenoid clicked occasionally. Upon subsequent start attempts the starter would turn and start the engine but not disengage fully for 15 -20 seconds. This progressed to just the solenoid clicking once on a start attempt.

· Replaced the starter since these were historic starter identification problems. The replacement solenoid did not have the same terminal configuration as the original; for the single ~ 14 gage female blade connector. When looking from the right to left front wheel the original solenoid had multiple connected male blade terminals at the 6 o’clock position. The replacement only had one at 12 o’clock. After installation and on a start attempt the solenoid would make no noise. This starter was also suspect since it did not have the dowel pin inserted; I had to press the old one out of the original starter.

· Went and got a third starter, male blade connectors were in the correct position and dowel pin was installed. Car started on first attempt so I put the cooling fan and radiator hoses back in place. Thought I was done. Next start attempt back to the single solenoid click.

It appears this solenoid is defective as well. I understand the ignition switch is the only other component in line with the battery and starter. The battery is new, there is plenty of current to all lights and ancillary equipment when the key is in any position except off; therefore the ignition switch does not appear to be part of the problem. There are no other anomalies to contend with either.

Am I missing anything on the ignition switch analysis? It appears odd but not impossible to have two defective rebuilt starter solenoids. Looking for a sanity check before requesting another replacement starter.

C@lvin · Post by **C@lvin** » 26 Jan 2010, 12:51

I agree with your original conclusion that the starter failed. Never had a Volvo starter fail, but I did have to rebuild one on my 94 Toyota Previa. The symptoms were identical.

By your description, the first replacement sounds very suspect so you might dismiss it from consideration.

The second replacement being bad does sound improbable but not impossible. I once had a computer hard drive that failed and the brand new replacement drive was determined to have been DOA. I have also installed a defective spark plug fresh out of the box.

Since you probably don't have new starters sitting on the shelf to just keep swapping out, I would suggest checking all the wiring in the circuit for shorts, breaks, etc. and measure the voltages at each end of each wire.

Hopefully, someone with more knowledge of the circuitry can respond with additional suggestions. Let us know what the final resolution is.

Oh, and welcome to MVS!

Post by **jblackburn** » 26 Jan 2010, 13:21

It does sound like a bad starter to me too.

As a matter of troubleshooting before diving down to replace it again, how old/what condition are your battery cables in? A bad/frayed cable going to the starter could cause it to do that, but I'm sure you would have noticed something like that. I'd sure hate to do this job 3 times.

If you still can't get anything out of the starter, find something to give it a good clonk with. The Volvo's is kinda down in there, so maybe a metal pipe or a 2x4 and give it a good whack with a hammer. That would confirm that it is the starter rather than the ignition switch. I kept a dying one going for about a month until it finally gave up by giving it a good whack every now and then.

Post by **holler1** » 26 Jan 2010, 19:11

There are some ways to narrow down the problem before getting another starter. Are you sure the click is the solenoid? To check, if you have a voltmeter, connect it to the blade terminal on the solenoid, the other lead to ground and see if you get 12 volts there when the key is turned to start. If there is, it indicates a starter or solenoid problem. If not, there is a problem in the circuitry. You didn't say if the car is an auto or stick; if auto there are some other circuits the start signal has to go through to get to the solenoid.

If no voltmeter is available, connect a jumper wire to the blade terminal (careful not to ground it) bring the other end up near the battery, turn the key on (not to start) and touch the other end of the wire to the pos battery terminal. If the solenoid and starter work with this arrangement, you know there is a problem with getting voltage from the key switch.

If you can easily remove the starter from the car, test it by grounding the starter case, connecting battery pos terminal to starter and a test wire from battery pos terminal to solenoid. You will need some extra wires to do this. Or take it to a parts store and ask them to test it.

green850T · Post by **green850T** » 30 Jan 2010, 07:53

holler1 wrote:There are some ways to narrow down the problem before getting another starter. Are you sure the click is the solenoid? yes To check, if you have a voltmeter, connect it to the blade terminal on the solenoid, the other lead to ground and see if you get 12 volts there when the key is turned to start. No[/b][/i] If there is, it indicates a starter or solenoid problem. If not, there is a problem in the circuitry. You didn't say if the car is an auto or stick; if auto there are some other circuits the start signal has to go through to get to the solenoid.

If no voltmeter is available, connect a jumper wire to the blade terminal (careful not to ground it) bring the other end up near the battery, turn the key on (not to start) and touch the other end of the wire to the pos battery terminal. If the solenoid and starter work with this arrangement, you know there is a problem with getting voltage from the key switch. same click

If you can easily remove the starter from the car, test it by grounding the starter case, connecting battery pos terminal to starter and a test wire from battery pos terminal to solenoid. You will need some extra wires to do this. Or take it to a parts store and ask them to test it.

I've been out of town on business thus the delayed response. Thanks for providing ideas!

green850T · Post by **green850T** » 30 Jan 2010, 09:41

green850T wrote:
holler1 wrote:There are some ways to narrow down the problem before getting another starter. Are you sure the click is the solenoid? yes To check, if you have a voltmeter, connect it to the blade terminal on the solenoid, the other lead to ground and see if you get 12 volts there when the key is turned to start. No[/b][/i] If there is, it indicates a starter or solenoid problem. If not, there is a problem in the circuitry. You didn't say if the car is an auto or stick; if auto there are some other circuits the start signal has to go through to get to the solenoid.

If no voltmeter is available, connect a jumper wire to the blade terminal (careful not to ground it) bring the other end up near the battery, turn the key on (not to start) and touch the other end of the wire to the pos battery terminal. If the solenoid and starter work with this arrangement, you know there is a problem with getting voltage from the key switch. same click

If you can easily remove the starter from the car, test it by grounding the starter case, connecting battery pos terminal to starter and a test wire from battery pos terminal to solenoid. You will need some extra wires to do this. Or take it to a parts store and ask them to test it.
I've been out of town on business thus the delayed response. Thanks for providing ideas!

I pulled the starter back out, bench tested was successful, starter spun. Thoroughly abraded and cleaned all mounting surfaces to assure a good ground between the starter housing and block. Reinstalled; back to the original click when trying to start with the key or with jumper between spade and positive battery terminal.

green850T · Post by **green850T** » 30 Jan 2010, 10:45

I performed a few more electrical checks:
1. With the starter installed and all connections made I have 12V from the solenoid positive terminal to the starter housing which tells me the starter housing is grounded correctly.
2. I removed the spade terminal and measured 10.3V between it and ground with the key in the ON position. Zero volts in the OFF position. I believe the solenoid needs 12V through the spade connector to spin the starter.

Does the wire on the spade terminal go back to the ignition switch?
Where does the ~14 gage black wire go to that connects to the solenoid positive post?

Post by **Pauloil** » 30 Jan 2010, 10:59

12v at the pos terminal means 12V is coming through pos battery cable at rest. it is advised to check the cables under load per the link in this post:

https://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/forums ... t+#p112428

a voltage drop test will help tell you which cable is bad

Post by **holler1** » 30 Jan 2010, 11:21

green850T wrote:2. I removed the spade terminal and measured 10.3V between it and ground with the key in the ON position. Zero volts in the OFF position. I believe the solenoid needs 12V through the spade connector to spin the starter.

That's correct, but I don't think the spade terminal should have 12 volts when the key is just "on", only if the key is turned to "start". "Start" and "on" control different circuits.

green850T wrote:Does the wire on the spade terminal go back to the ignition switch?

With an automatic, the "start" wiring from the key switch goes thru some other circuitry (PNP) before reaching the solenoid spade terminal. There is a terminal that bypasses the PNP that comes out in a white connector cage in the main fuse box. I've been using a permanent jumper wire from that to the blade terminal as a fix to my no-crank issue, because I have an open circuit somewhere in the PNP area. However, if the solenoid is definitely clicking when the key is turned, I would not think this is your problem. Also, if you still get just a click when connecting a jumper from the battery to the blade, it seems to indicate a problem in the solenoid or starter itself, or in the main wiring to the starter (or the battery)

green850T · Post by **green850T** » 30 Jan 2010, 15:42

Problem solved; not totally sure why. I cleaned both battery terminals even though they were very clean and not corroded. I removed the starter again and spun it at full rpm for ~15 seconds about five times. Then re-installed starter and it started. Have had a dozen successful starts since. Not sure if something was hung up inside the solenoid or whether it's on borrowed time. If it fails again I will get a new, and not a rebuilt starter. Thanks again for the responses.