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850 MAF and TPS

Help, Advice and DIY Tutorials on Volvo's P80 platform cars -- Volvo's 1990s "bread and butter" cars -- powered by the ubiquitous and durable Volvo inline 5-cylinder engine.

1992 - 1997 850, including 850 R, 850 T-5R, 850 T-5, 850 GLT
1997 - 2000 S70, S70 AWD
1997 - 2000 V70, V70 AWD
1997 - 2000 V70-XC
1997 - 2004 C70

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850tech
Posts: 123
Joined: 7 May 2010
Year and Model: 1995 850 Turbo 5spd
Location: Canada

Re: 850 MAF and TPS

Post by 850tech »

Compression spec is 156-184 psi with a maximum difference between lowest and highest reading of 28 psi.
The test must be done with the engine hot to gain accurate readings.
Now all your readings are low, but if the system is really rich from the open loop issue, the excess fuel may be 'washing down' the cylinders causing an initally low reading. All of this said it may need the engine, it's hard for me to say over the inter-web, but if those inital compression readings are confirmed, it could be your issue.

Idle at 1000 is alittle high, should be in the 700-800's. Vacuum leaks may be the culprit, check that elbow on the intake manifold as well as the intake gasket itself, they are very bad for leaks.

The small puff of blue smoke would be oil, maybe pcv system problems, pull out the dipstick at warm idle and watch for any signs of smoke, if it puffs like an old steam train, there is excessive crankcase pressure which is more often then not a clogged crankcase ventilation system (pcv), but this can also be tired rings and valve seals/guides over powering even a clean crankcase ventilation system, agian pointing to those low compression readings. Now if the smoke is by chance black its running way to rich (open loop) and may be washing the cylinders down, i would double check the colour of the smoke yourself to be sure.

As far as the jumping back to open loop, I really can't tell without seeing the data steam unfortunatly.

Anyways check for vacuum leaks FIRST, if you cant find any faults and are sure of it, try to find out what the pre-cat readings were, and if they did a cat efficency test before replacing the cat, and is the new cat aftermarket or OEM.
Also Does the car have a secondary air system? and do you know what your fuel pressure reading is?
But again check for vacuum leaks first.

sorry wish i could give you a straight 'do this and it's fixed' kinda answer, but it's impossible without seeing the car, and even then the answers not always so obvious.

Keep us posted and good luck :wink:

Jack Rock
Posts: 313
Joined: 2 June 2010
Year and Model: 1998 V70R
Location: Stratford, Ontario
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Post by Jack Rock »

Thanks for all of the tips. I've been reading non-stop here for weeks trying to find clues to my problem. Last night I triple checked the vacuum lines (visual and feel), even found a few that I hadn't checked before. They all seem to be in good condition and maybe even fairly new. Tonight I plan to check the lines with a propane torch or ether or something to see if I get any different engine revs. I also checked and cleaned the IAC, no problem. I also checked the dip stick smoke theory and found zero smoke coming from there. I pulled off the intake, checked and cleaned the PTC, disconnected the PCV hose from the PTC and capped the port to the PTC. I ran the engine and revved it up a bit, maybe 2000rpm, for about ten seconds with my thumb on the end of the PCV hose. I let go and found a fairly big rush of air. I guess this confirms the blow-by and excess crankcase pressure. It also proves that my PVC is still relieving the pressure (nipple could still be plugged) as long as the orifice in the PTC is capable. That being said, I plan to leave this hose off for my next emission test, if I pass, then I'll change out the PCV at my leisure this summer. The theory behind this is that if my PCV nipple (return to crankcase) is plugged, I could be picking up oil particles from a saturated tank and sending them into my intake for burning, hence high emissions. BUT...

I'm starting to think that maybe my idle issue and emissions issues are related. I've found many posts and files that indicate that the ECT controls idle, ignition timing, injection period etc. Also the system of soot from the tailpipe I discovered I am a victim of last night. This would explain my rich blend and high idle. My mechanic said he saw blue smoke but maybe it's blackish from unburned fuel. My gauge sits at 3 oclock but it seems to get there really fast, I've never noticed it anywhere else. I plan to check the gauge and measure the voltages at the ECT tonight but I will likely change it and the t-stat anyway.

Maybe I'm just babbling, afterall, I'm an electrician not a mechanic and I've never sat in a Volvo until a month ago.
1997 850 T5 (gave up at 324,000km)
1998 V70 R AWD (gave up at 296,000km)
1998 S70 T5 (total loss - in a parking lot!)
1999 V70XC
1975 VW beetle
1960 Empi Sportster Dune Buggy

850tech
Posts: 123
Joined: 7 May 2010
Year and Model: 1995 850 Turbo 5spd
Location: Canada

Post by 850tech »

Use a can of brake clean to check for vacuum leaks, pay extra attention to where the intake bolts to the block.

Next ensure that your fuel pressure is about 43psi with the vacuum line off the fuel pressure regulator and make sure no fuel is leaking past the regulator. With the regulator connected pressure should be between 23psi and 43psi depending on engine load.

Poor fuel pressure from a bad regulator or clogged fuel filter along with a small vacuum leak are still sticking with me as a strong possibility based on your readings. It really seems like the engine is leaning out under load, but it must be vary close to a stoichiometric air/fuel mixture (the perfect 14.7:1) at idle as the readings are about perfect. This makes me think that the engine must not be rich at idle, and if your coolent temp gauge is at 3, and gets there quickly, your Coolent Temp Sensor and T-Stat are fine.

As far as the crankcase pressure,I'm a little concerned that it may be rings. I agree with leaving the hose off at the intake for your test, just remember to seal the empty hole where they attach as it's post MAF, as the engine would lean out as a result of the 'false air'. Also the disconnected hose will leak some oil so run it into something like a 500ml coke bottle to catch the oil, don't seal it though or it will blow off from the pressure. If It is rings thats the cause of the fail, this may help.

Agian, good luck and keep us posted.

Jack Rock
Posts: 313
Joined: 2 June 2010
Year and Model: 1998 V70R
Location: Stratford, Ontario
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by Jack Rock »

Ok, here's what I've done. Verified the ECT by measuring the resistance as it cooled from running temperature. No issues there, my temperature estimations versus resistance readings matched the values I found in the service manual posted here.

I don't have any gauges so I haven't measured fuel pressure but I took off the vacuum line and found no fuel leaking past the regulator. I plan to change the fuel filter this weekend anyway.

I sprayed around for vacuum/air leaks and although I didn't notice any engine hesitation or surges, I did notice that when I was done there was a noticeable amount of white smoke coming from the tailpipe. I was using carb cleaner lightly because that's all I had handy, I'm going to grab some brake cleaner as you've suggested and get a helper to watch for the smoke as I spray it around. After that I might as well just take it to the shop and have them check fuel pressure and do a smoke test (if that what it's called)for the vacuum leak.

I know the condition of the rings isn't ideal but I'm hoping that they aren't the only cause of me failing. If I can just get around that issue for now I will address it once I determine if the car is going to be worth it. But I need to drive it for a bit (legally) to get a feel for it.

Thanks again for all of the info.
1997 850 T5 (gave up at 324,000km)
1998 V70 R AWD (gave up at 296,000km)
1998 S70 T5 (total loss - in a parking lot!)
1999 V70XC
1975 VW beetle
1960 Empi Sportster Dune Buggy

850tech
Posts: 123
Joined: 7 May 2010
Year and Model: 1995 850 Turbo 5spd
Location: Canada

Post by 850tech »

Everything your doing there sounds good, but the white smoke tells me the carb cleaner is getting into the system and, the intake and combustion chamber must be full of deposits (the source of the white smoke). Excessive Carbon build up within the combustion chamber is also a possible cause of high HC, CO and Nox together. I would add running some combustion chamber cleaner through the engine, and ignore the smoke, to your list of repairs.

It may just be your in one of those situations where there are multipe small issues, which combined look like one vary large problem. If you don't find anything and decide to take it to the shop, you might try printing this thread and seeing if the Technician would read it through and maybe find something useful. Now I've worked with many techs who might take this the wrong way, so just be careful in your approch, and try not to make them feel like your questioning thier ability.

Jack Rock
Posts: 313
Joined: 2 June 2010
Year and Model: 1998 V70R
Location: Stratford, Ontario
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by Jack Rock »

I've now replaced the fuel filter and tried to reproduce my previous results but found nothing this time. Since replacing the filter my idle rpm is down about 750ish though. I've added Lucas oil stabilizer, ran some combustion chamber cleaner through, emptied the tank and ran a full tank of ultra 94 from a busy gas station (I didn't mention that early on in my troubles the mechanic was suspicious of the quality of gas, he said it didn't smell or burn right). I've also disconnected the PCV and capped the intake tight. I'm going to get it retested on Monday. If I pass, great, if not, then I've got a new base point to start from. I'm going to take these readings to a Volvo specialist from nearby (45min) and have him diagnose the problem/s. I will likely only tell him the new parts that I've put on - I don't want to lead him in any direction and I'm not 100% certain I've tested everything right. I'll post the test results soon.

As luck may have it, I haven't added an expired plate sticker ticket to my list of repairs yet.
1997 850 T5 (gave up at 324,000km)
1998 V70 R AWD (gave up at 296,000km)
1998 S70 T5 (total loss - in a parking lot!)
1999 V70XC
1975 VW beetle
1960 Empi Sportster Dune Buggy

850tech
Posts: 123
Joined: 7 May 2010
Year and Model: 1995 850 Turbo 5spd
Location: Canada

Post by 850tech »

Jack Rock wrote: I've now replaced the fuel filter and tried to reproduce my previous results but found nothing this time. Since replacing the filter my idle rpm is down about 750ish though. I've added Lucas oil stabilizer, ran some combustion chamber cleaner through, emptied the tank and ran a full tank of ultra 94 from a busy gas station (I didn't mention that early on in my troubles the mechanic was suspicious of the quality of gas, he said it didn't smell or burn right). I've also disconnected the PCV and capped the intake tight. I'm going to get it retested on Monday. If I pass, great, if not, then I've got a new base point to start from. I'm going to take these readings to a Volvo specialist from nearby (45min) and have him diagnose the problem/s. I will likely only tell him the new parts that I've put on - I don't want to lead him in any direction and I'm not 100% certain I've tested everything right. I'll post the test results soon.

As luck may have it, I haven't added an expired plate sticker ticket to my list of repairs yet.
I'm interested to know how you faired on Monday, really hope you passed. If the fuel quality was indeed poor, and the fuel filter restircted, either would have produced the readings of your previous test (excessive lean will drive up all 3 gases)
The Sunoco 94 works great in these cars, but in the Hamilton area all the Sunoco's are now Huskey's so I've gone to Shell 91 which has been every bit as good at a cent or to cheaper per letre then the ultra94

Jack Rock
Posts: 313
Joined: 2 June 2010
Year and Model: 1998 V70R
Location: Stratford, Ontario
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by Jack Rock »

Well, as it turns out, the shop's etest machine has a crapped out circuit board (maybe that's my problem!) It's supposed to be up and running by the weekend. Today I've disconnected the battery to reset the fuel trim, I read about this last night. While I've got the battery out, I'm taking a better look at some vacuum lines underneath. The shells around here also only have 91. Since I got the car, I've been filling with 91 at 7-11. Maybe they don't go through much of the stuff and I've been filling up on the same old gas every time. Something new - I've been noticing the smell of gas after I've been driving and come to a stop. There are no wet spot around the gas tank, filter and lines, it seems to be coming from the front of the car. No leaks from the injectors. I took the access covers off in the trunk, nothing wet there either. I don't know anything about what can go wrong in the evap system and I don't know if this could be related.

Thanks for sticking with me, It's probably going to be next week before the car can get tested, I'll post the results as soon as I get them.
1997 850 T5 (gave up at 324,000km)
1998 V70 R AWD (gave up at 296,000km)
1998 S70 T5 (total loss - in a parking lot!)
1999 V70XC
1975 VW beetle
1960 Empi Sportster Dune Buggy

jblackburn
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Year and Model: 1998 S70 T5
Location: Alexandria, VA
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Post by jblackburn »

There are no wet spot around the gas tank, filter and lines, it seems to be coming from the front of the car. No leaks from the injectors. I took the access covers off in the trunk, nothing wet there either. I don't know anything about what can go wrong in the evap system and I don't know if this could be related.
Check your lines into the charcoal canister; I'd guess yours is by the front left wheel (850's have different locations) since the smell seems to be coming from around there. A cracked hose on the canister can make nasty smells, as well as throw codes like crazy.
'98 S70 T5
2016 Chevy Cruze Premier


A learning experience is one of those things that says, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

mercuic: Long live the tractor motor!

Jack Rock
Posts: 313
Joined: 2 June 2010
Year and Model: 1998 V70R
Location: Stratford, Ontario
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by Jack Rock »

I'm not sure where the charcoal canister is, could it be in the front left wheel well? If so, can it be accessed by taking the wheel well cover off? If this can produce codes is that to say it effects how rich or lean the engine runs?
1997 850 T5 (gave up at 324,000km)
1998 V70 R AWD (gave up at 296,000km)
1998 S70 T5 (total loss - in a parking lot!)
1999 V70XC
1975 VW beetle
1960 Empi Sportster Dune Buggy

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