Hi, I live in Spain (sorry about my english), I have a 960 SW 3.0 24v, automatic, 1995, I just bought it. The engine, apparently is in a good condition, only 155.000 kms (around 96.000 miles). Sounds very good. But since the first day I drove it, I felt it NOT very powerfull. I know it is a heavy car and a "relax" engine, but I think it doesn´t run as fast as it should run.
Just two days after I bouht it, the light indicating "Lambda failure" on the speedometer came out. (I think the Lambda sensor, you called it Oxigen sensor in english, right?) The car was runnig same as before. I called the dealer who sold me the car and told me they will buy for me a new Lambda sensor. Still waiting for it.
I feel that the fuel consumption is very high for this car. Driving on the highway at 120 km/h (75mph) is doing 15 liters per 100 kms (according to my calculation 15,5 mpg) and on the city is 18 l/100 kms (13 mpg). I know that with the Lambda sensor not working properly, the fuel consumption gets higher, but I think it is excesive. What do you think?
After looking on the forum, I found how to check the auto diagnosis. I made it on the A2, and came 5 differents error codes: 512; 231; 233; 121; 322.
After looking on the internet, I found only codes for an 960 2.9l 1994 North american model, and I don´t know if the codes are the same for mine. They are:
231:Lambda rich/lean.
233: Idle Control Not In Range.
121: Mass Airflow Signal.
322: Airflow Meter Hot Wire.
It doesn´t say anything about the code 512.
I cleared all the codes. I drove the car, was the same as before, the only change was an unstable idle on cold engine, after warm up, was stable. After 5 miles, came out again the Lambda light. I checked again the codes, and came out only one: 512, exatcly the one I don´t know.
Does anybody knows the error codes for this car?
Do you think the fuel consumption is normal? and with only a Lambda sensor change, it will reduce a lot?
Is this car very "lazy"?
Thanks.
Regards.
Spanish 960 3.0 problems
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billofdurham
- MVS Moderator
- Posts: 6507
- Joined: 2 February 2006
- Year and Model: 855, 1995
- Location: Durham, England
- Been thanked: 5 times
The codes are universal so they do apply to your car.
Code 5-1-2 is short term fuel trim, lower limit. It can be set by a faulty Lambda sensor. If the dealer is putting off supplying the new sensor you need to press him to get it done as quickly as possible as you are using far too much fuel.
Going on to the other codes:
2-3-1 is the long term fuel trim (Upper limit). This can be set by a defective MAF sensor.
2-3-3 is the long term idle trim (Limit exceeded). This can be set by a blocked air filter or air intake, an air leak, an incorrectly adjusted throttle or a defective IAC valve.
1-2-1 is the Mass Air Flow (MAF) signal incorrect. It can be too high or too low. It can cause misfiring.
3-2-2 is the MAF sensor burn off (Signal too low). This can be caused by a break in the leads, short circuit to earth (ground) or contact resistance in the connectors.
Most of these faults will cause high fuel consumption and make your car feel sluggish.
I suggest you go back to the dealer and tell him of the faults that have shown up on the diagnostic unit and tell him to correct them.
Bill.
Code 5-1-2 is short term fuel trim, lower limit. It can be set by a faulty Lambda sensor. If the dealer is putting off supplying the new sensor you need to press him to get it done as quickly as possible as you are using far too much fuel.
Going on to the other codes:
2-3-1 is the long term fuel trim (Upper limit). This can be set by a defective MAF sensor.
2-3-3 is the long term idle trim (Limit exceeded). This can be set by a blocked air filter or air intake, an air leak, an incorrectly adjusted throttle or a defective IAC valve.
1-2-1 is the Mass Air Flow (MAF) signal incorrect. It can be too high or too low. It can cause misfiring.
3-2-2 is the MAF sensor burn off (Signal too low). This can be caused by a break in the leads, short circuit to earth (ground) or contact resistance in the connectors.
Most of these faults will cause high fuel consumption and make your car feel sluggish.
I suggest you go back to the dealer and tell him of the faults that have shown up on the diagnostic unit and tell him to correct them.
Bill.
Work was good - retirement is better.
1996 850GLT 2.5 20v Estate Manual.
1995 Peugeot Boxer 2.5Tdi Autosleeper.
Previously:
1984 244DL, Manual, Beige.
1987 744GLE, Manual, Green.
1991 960 3.0 24v, Auto, Silver.
1994 940T Wentworth, Auto, Blue.
1996 850GLT 2.5 20v Estate Manual.
1995 Peugeot Boxer 2.5Tdi Autosleeper.
Previously:
1984 244DL, Manual, Beige.
1987 744GLE, Manual, Green.
1991 960 3.0 24v, Auto, Silver.
1994 940T Wentworth, Auto, Blue.
Hi Bill, thanks for your answer.
Reading on the internet, I found that to make a check of the MAF, was to disconect it and drive the car like this for a few miles in order to feel the difference. I did it at the begening, before I knew about reading error codes, and I felt the car exactly the same with or without the MAF conectted. Maybe that is the reason why those MAF error codes.
But after cleared them, if only comes out again the 512, means that the MAF is ok, right?
Why before clearing the error codes the idle was stable, and after it is unstable with the cold engine, or hot but just during one minute after start?
Do you think that if I put a new Lambda sensor, the 512 error will disappear?
I saw the Lambda sensor on the exhaust and looked to me very new, I don´t know if it is new or no, but my doubt is if the problem is something else that is making the Lambda sensor to fail. Can be?
Sorry, what is IAC valve?
The problem about going back to the dealer is that, due to my job I have to travel and live for a few months in another country, Marrocco, and bought the car for this reason and it is right now with me in Marrocco. I will not come back to Spain with the car untill January. No problem with the dealer, he gave me a 6 months guarantee, and in January I will still with it.
That is why I was thinking to bring the Lambda sensor from Spain and put it on here, but I´m not sure if the only problem is this sensor.
Reading on the internet, I found that to make a check of the MAF, was to disconect it and drive the car like this for a few miles in order to feel the difference. I did it at the begening, before I knew about reading error codes, and I felt the car exactly the same with or without the MAF conectted. Maybe that is the reason why those MAF error codes.
But after cleared them, if only comes out again the 512, means that the MAF is ok, right?
Why before clearing the error codes the idle was stable, and after it is unstable with the cold engine, or hot but just during one minute after start?
Do you think that if I put a new Lambda sensor, the 512 error will disappear?
I saw the Lambda sensor on the exhaust and looked to me very new, I don´t know if it is new or no, but my doubt is if the problem is something else that is making the Lambda sensor to fail. Can be?
Sorry, what is IAC valve?
The problem about going back to the dealer is that, due to my job I have to travel and live for a few months in another country, Marrocco, and bought the car for this reason and it is right now with me in Marrocco. I will not come back to Spain with the car untill January. No problem with the dealer, he gave me a 6 months guarantee, and in January I will still with it.
That is why I was thinking to bring the Lambda sensor from Spain and put it on here, but I´m not sure if the only problem is this sensor.
-
billofdurham
- MVS Moderator
- Posts: 6507
- Joined: 2 February 2006
- Year and Model: 855, 1995
- Location: Durham, England
- Been thanked: 5 times
Disconnecting the MAF would set the codes and will explain why they did not return on your second check.
The IAC is the Idle Air Control Valve which adjust the engine idle RPM speed by opening and closing an air bypass passage inside the throttle body. As this code hasn't returned we don't need to worry about it.
The Lambda light doesn't necessarily mean a fault with the Lambda sensor. It is more generally referred to as 'the check engine light'. It is illuminated when a fault code is stored.
Code 5-1-2 has two symptoms: High fuel consumption and uneven running so it is the probable cause of your unstable idle. The Engine Control Unit (ECU) receives information from the Lambda and other sensors and tries to compensate. The instructions for correcting this code start with checking the MAF.
The first test is to check the MAF earth (ground) with an ohm-meter as in the attached.
If that test is OK then check the connectors for oxidation and contact resistance. You can spray the connectors with an electrical contact cleaner. Reconnect the connector, clear the code and go for a test drive. If the code reappears spray the MAF with a MAF cleaner which can be bought at most car parts shops. Again clear the code and do a test drive and let us know the result.
Bill.
The IAC is the Idle Air Control Valve which adjust the engine idle RPM speed by opening and closing an air bypass passage inside the throttle body. As this code hasn't returned we don't need to worry about it.
The Lambda light doesn't necessarily mean a fault with the Lambda sensor. It is more generally referred to as 'the check engine light'. It is illuminated when a fault code is stored.
Code 5-1-2 has two symptoms: High fuel consumption and uneven running so it is the probable cause of your unstable idle. The Engine Control Unit (ECU) receives information from the Lambda and other sensors and tries to compensate. The instructions for correcting this code start with checking the MAF.
The first test is to check the MAF earth (ground) with an ohm-meter as in the attached.
960 MAF sensor earth lead resistance,.pdf- (74.54 KiB) Downloaded 300 times
Bill.
Work was good - retirement is better.
1996 850GLT 2.5 20v Estate Manual.
1995 Peugeot Boxer 2.5Tdi Autosleeper.
Previously:
1984 244DL, Manual, Beige.
1987 744GLE, Manual, Green.
1991 960 3.0 24v, Auto, Silver.
1994 940T Wentworth, Auto, Blue.
1996 850GLT 2.5 20v Estate Manual.
1995 Peugeot Boxer 2.5Tdi Autosleeper.
Previously:
1984 244DL, Manual, Beige.
1987 744GLE, Manual, Green.
1991 960 3.0 24v, Auto, Silver.
1994 940T Wentworth, Auto, Blue.
I would rule out vacuum leaks, air leaks in the intake ducting, the oil separator hoses. Almost all trouble codes can be traced back to corroded electrical connections and unmeasured air from leaks. Sensor fail but are not my first thoughts.
I also had the code 512 numerous times and it always traced back to a air leak in the intake system.
The diagnostic system is rather general and what the trouble code points to certain things really are only a clue to the cause.
I am one to only spend the money if I have to, so I will go to great lengths to rule out faulty sensors.
Also, there is a warm up tube that is connected to the air filter box, it is a foil tube, it draws air from the exhaust manifold when first started until the engine warms up, that valve will get jammed and stay to the hot air side and draw in heated air continuously, after a while it will burn out a good MAF.
DanR '94 964 356,000 miles (122,000 on the new engine)
I also had the code 512 numerous times and it always traced back to a air leak in the intake system.
The diagnostic system is rather general and what the trouble code points to certain things really are only a clue to the cause.
I am one to only spend the money if I have to, so I will go to great lengths to rule out faulty sensors.
Also, there is a warm up tube that is connected to the air filter box, it is a foil tube, it draws air from the exhaust manifold when first started until the engine warms up, that valve will get jammed and stay to the hot air side and draw in heated air continuously, after a while it will burn out a good MAF.
DanR '94 964 356,000 miles (122,000 on the new engine)
Bill, so to correct the 512, Should I check the MAF first? Do you think it is more probable than the Lambda sensor?
I will try to make the test, but, when it says "ground", it means any metallic part of the car or the negative pole on the batery, right?
I cleaned the MAF allready, but looked to me allready clean.
I still don´t understand why before clearing any codes, the idle was totally perfect, and now, after cleared them, it is unstable mainly the fisrt 1-2 minutes after star.
DanR960, when you had the 512, did you notice a big increase on the fuel consumption? where was exactly the air leak?
I will try to look for any leak, I don´t have enough tools here in Marocco to dismount the intake system, but I will try.
Is your 960 a 3.0l engine as well?
In normal condition, when everything is working properly, what is your average fuel consumption?
Only to be sure, this engine has only one Lambda sensor, right? When I was underneath the car I saw only one before the catalytic converter, but I don´t know if it has any other on the manifold.
Thanks a lot to both of you for the answers.
Carlos.
I will try to make the test, but, when it says "ground", it means any metallic part of the car or the negative pole on the batery, right?
I cleaned the MAF allready, but looked to me allready clean.
I still don´t understand why before clearing any codes, the idle was totally perfect, and now, after cleared them, it is unstable mainly the fisrt 1-2 minutes after star.
DanR960, when you had the 512, did you notice a big increase on the fuel consumption? where was exactly the air leak?
I will try to look for any leak, I don´t have enough tools here in Marocco to dismount the intake system, but I will try.
Is your 960 a 3.0l engine as well?
In normal condition, when everything is working properly, what is your average fuel consumption?
Only to be sure, this engine has only one Lambda sensor, right? When I was underneath the car I saw only one before the catalytic converter, but I don´t know if it has any other on the manifold.
Thanks a lot to both of you for the answers.
Carlos.
I did the MAF sensor earth resistance test, but I don´t know if I did it well. Do I have to test the connector cable that comes from "the car" and goes to the MAF, right? Doing so, I´m cheking the cable coming from the car, not the MAF it self, right? Anyway, I did the test on that connector, if I do it on the number 1 as shown in the picture, gives me 1 ohm, but if I do it on the number 6, gives me 0 ohm.
I cleaned up the idle valve, was very dirty, no the idle is much better, almost perfect. Is it normal, with only ignition on, engine Not running, the idle valve is allready working (vibrating)?
I found one connector, (2 wires), alone, disconnected, between the idle valve and the oil dipstick, I didn´t find any place to connect it to, is that normal? any diagnosis cable?
There is a diagnosis cable wich is on the back of the engine, on the top, close to the last ignition coil. I read another check to perform: "Voltage Supply To Ignition Coils, Turn ignition on. Connect volt-meter between ground and test
terminal at rear of engine. Voltmeter should show battery voltage. If battery voltage is not present, check relay, wiring and
connectors". I did it and gave me 0, but I don´t think this wire is in a good shape.
Regarding the valve on the air box, is one of the first things I have checked at the beggining, and it was oriented all the time to the "heat" side, now I putted to the "cold" side for allways. In Spain, and specially in Marocco, the temperature doesn´t reach very low leves in order to need this valve..!
I read again the codes and gave me the 521, and now 511. What is 511? Where do you take the code list from?
Regards.
I cleaned up the idle valve, was very dirty, no the idle is much better, almost perfect. Is it normal, with only ignition on, engine Not running, the idle valve is allready working (vibrating)?
I found one connector, (2 wires), alone, disconnected, between the idle valve and the oil dipstick, I didn´t find any place to connect it to, is that normal? any diagnosis cable?
There is a diagnosis cable wich is on the back of the engine, on the top, close to the last ignition coil. I read another check to perform: "Voltage Supply To Ignition Coils, Turn ignition on. Connect volt-meter between ground and test
terminal at rear of engine. Voltmeter should show battery voltage. If battery voltage is not present, check relay, wiring and
connectors". I did it and gave me 0, but I don´t think this wire is in a good shape.
Regarding the valve on the air box, is one of the first things I have checked at the beggining, and it was oriented all the time to the "heat" side, now I putted to the "cold" side for allways. In Spain, and specially in Marocco, the temperature doesn´t reach very low leves in order to need this valve..!
I read again the codes and gave me the 521, and now 511. What is 511? Where do you take the code list from?
Regards.
-
billofdurham
- MVS Moderator
- Posts: 6507
- Joined: 2 February 2006
- Year and Model: 855, 1995
- Location: Durham, England
- Been thanked: 5 times
Full code list attached.
5-1-1 is the long term fuel trim at idle.
Bill.
- 960 Fault code list.pdf
- (3.66 MiB) Downloaded 218 times
Bill.
Work was good - retirement is better.
1996 850GLT 2.5 20v Estate Manual.
1995 Peugeot Boxer 2.5Tdi Autosleeper.
Previously:
1984 244DL, Manual, Beige.
1987 744GLE, Manual, Green.
1991 960 3.0 24v, Auto, Silver.
1994 940T Wentworth, Auto, Blue.
1996 850GLT 2.5 20v Estate Manual.
1995 Peugeot Boxer 2.5Tdi Autosleeper.
Previously:
1984 244DL, Manual, Beige.
1987 744GLE, Manual, Green.
1991 960 3.0 24v, Auto, Silver.
1994 940T Wentworth, Auto, Blue.
Bill, I did the MAF sensor earth resistance test, but I don´t know if I did it well. The test has to be done on the connector on the wire coming from the car, right? Doing so, I´m checking the wire from the car, not the MAF it self, right?
Thanks for the code list. Regarding this, the 2 codes that I have, the problem is more related to the MAF and wires, than the Lambda sensor, right?
I found one connector, (2 wires), alone, disconnected, between the idle valve and the oil dipstick, I didn´t find any place to connect it to, is that normal? any diagnosis cable?
There is a diagnosis cable wich is on the back of the engine, on the top, close to the last ignition coil. I read another check to perform: "Voltage Supply To Ignition Coils, Turn ignition on. Connect volt-meter between ground and test
terminal at rear of engine. Voltmeter should show battery voltage. If battery voltage is not present, check relay, wiring and
connectors". I did it and gave me 0, but I don´t think this wire is in a good shape.
Regards.
Thanks for the code list. Regarding this, the 2 codes that I have, the problem is more related to the MAF and wires, than the Lambda sensor, right?
I found one connector, (2 wires), alone, disconnected, between the idle valve and the oil dipstick, I didn´t find any place to connect it to, is that normal? any diagnosis cable?
There is a diagnosis cable wich is on the back of the engine, on the top, close to the last ignition coil. I read another check to perform: "Voltage Supply To Ignition Coils, Turn ignition on. Connect volt-meter between ground and test
terminal at rear of engine. Voltmeter should show battery voltage. If battery voltage is not present, check relay, wiring and
connectors". I did it and gave me 0, but I don´t think this wire is in a good shape.
Regards.
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