Hi
Can you point me in the right direction?
Is there any definitive about whether lubed threads torque differently than dry ones...?
Also, does adding an extension onto a torque wrench change the value?
Torque questions
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JDS60R
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Covered in a recent thread
Yes the lube makes a difference and each lube will give a different value.
Think of how much harder it is to turn two unlubricated pieces of metal across each other compared to two well lubed surfaces.
Extensions do effect the force applied based on length, and propensity to twist . These factors take up some of the energy you wanted to apply. Imagine you used a 10 foot piece of licorice as an extensions. It twists easily and therefore almost no torque would get to the bolt on the first turn
Yes the lube makes a difference and each lube will give a different value.
Think of how much harder it is to turn two unlubricated pieces of metal across each other compared to two well lubed surfaces.
Extensions do effect the force applied based on length, and propensity to twist . These factors take up some of the energy you wanted to apply. Imagine you used a 10 foot piece of licorice as an extensions. It twists easily and therefore almost no torque would get to the bolt on the first turn
Retired
ok, but I was under the impression that the torque was more about stretching the bolt.
So, it would of course spin in easier, but when you get to the final stretch, would not the torque then be accurate? (i don't know, just thinking outloud...)
I get what you mean about the longer the extension, the more propensity to twist and 'absorb' torque. Is there anyway to do the math on this?
I used a 6" extension... must be a formula somewheres...
So, it would of course spin in easier, but when you get to the final stretch, would not the torque then be accurate? (i don't know, just thinking outloud...)
I get what you mean about the longer the extension, the more propensity to twist and 'absorb' torque. Is there anyway to do the math on this?
I used a 6" extension... must be a formula somewheres...
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JRL
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Some say 80 lbs, some say 100
I run 80 ft lbs and make sure you put anti-sieze on the hubs and the wheel bolts before mounting up a wheel
I run 80 ft lbs and make sure you put anti-sieze on the hubs and the wheel bolts before mounting up a wheel
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cn90
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Mfg's always state Torque Values dry (no lubricant) b/c there are so many other lubricants out there.
What I have done for 25 years: I use antiseize and torque to the same values, zero problems.
This is because when you torque it down to the final value, it is essentially a Static Torque (Physics 101).
Also there is a lot of room for error for big lug.
Let's say the torque is 80 lb-ft. It would take up to 300 lb-ft to break the lug.
S a little under and over is no big deal.
What I have done for 25 years: I use antiseize and torque to the same values, zero problems.
This is because when you torque it down to the final value, it is essentially a Static Torque (Physics 101).
Also there is a lot of room for error for big lug.
Let's say the torque is 80 lb-ft. It would take up to 300 lb-ft to break the lug.
S a little under and over is no big deal.
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JDS60R
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You can't do the math without knowing what it would absorb.
The lube lets it turn in easier so it does stretch more. That is what it is all about. (You are correct)
Anti-sieze is not a slippery lube but its better than dry.
For good accuracy you can use ARP ultra torque.
Each section of the vehicle will vary between a torque value with lube and one without. Volvo uses 30 wt on building engines but I like the ultra toque better. low torque situations rarely call for a lube as the tension needed is so small the difference between lubed and non lubed is small. As torques get higher a lube is a necessity (dry lubed or otherwise)
Some areas like wheel lugs may have a dry film lubricant or coating. Once worn away you should use a lube or replace the fastner with one that has the proper polish or coating.
Take a look at the other post and ARP's info on lubricating threads. They may know bit more than us on the subject.
The lube lets it turn in easier so it does stretch more. That is what it is all about. (You are correct)
Anti-sieze is not a slippery lube but its better than dry.
For good accuracy you can use ARP ultra torque.
Each section of the vehicle will vary between a torque value with lube and one without. Volvo uses 30 wt on building engines but I like the ultra toque better. low torque situations rarely call for a lube as the tension needed is so small the difference between lubed and non lubed is small. As torques get higher a lube is a necessity (dry lubed or otherwise)
Some areas like wheel lugs may have a dry film lubricant or coating. Once worn away you should use a lube or replace the fastner with one that has the proper polish or coating.
Take a look at the other post and ARP's info on lubricating threads. They may know bit more than us on the subject.
Retired
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ed7
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In the case of wheel bolts or nuts, it's all relative. If they are torqued evenly to the same value, that's most important to prevent distortion to the brake rotors and wheels. Most anti-seize is oil/grease mixed, so it does add lubricity to the fastener.
In the case of head bolts, consistency of pressure applied over the surface of the head is most important. Additionally, pressure must be sufficient to compress the gasket and suffer through many heat cycles of the engine.
Some head bolts are meant to be used only once because of their torque to yield design. They are stretched to near their breaking point. If used over, they would shear before meeting the torque angle a second time.
The engineers have done the metallurgy and designed the components as necessary for us to use. They've done the math, so I don't have to.
When using a clicker style torque wrench, extensions will make a negligible difference. The wrench will click when the value is met, no matter how much the extension twists. Most torque values found in my Volvo manual are a foot/lb or newton/meter value followed by a torque angle value (degrees of turn subsequent). In this case an extension will make a difference if the torque angle is measured at the head of the wrench. Torque angle should be measured at the head of the fastener or as close to it as possible. Any torsional weakness of the extension above the fastener does nothing but make you move your wrench farther than necessary. You are measuring the torque angle of the fastener, not the wrench.
There are many factors that could be added in like lube on the head of the fastener, adding a washer, using your left hand...
Drain plugs with crush washers don't need a torque wrench, just common sense.
Yes, lubricant makes a difference. When in doubt, follow directions.
Ed
In the case of head bolts, consistency of pressure applied over the surface of the head is most important. Additionally, pressure must be sufficient to compress the gasket and suffer through many heat cycles of the engine.
Some head bolts are meant to be used only once because of their torque to yield design. They are stretched to near their breaking point. If used over, they would shear before meeting the torque angle a second time.
The engineers have done the metallurgy and designed the components as necessary for us to use. They've done the math, so I don't have to.
When using a clicker style torque wrench, extensions will make a negligible difference. The wrench will click when the value is met, no matter how much the extension twists. Most torque values found in my Volvo manual are a foot/lb or newton/meter value followed by a torque angle value (degrees of turn subsequent). In this case an extension will make a difference if the torque angle is measured at the head of the wrench. Torque angle should be measured at the head of the fastener or as close to it as possible. Any torsional weakness of the extension above the fastener does nothing but make you move your wrench farther than necessary. You are measuring the torque angle of the fastener, not the wrench.
There are many factors that could be added in like lube on the head of the fastener, adding a washer, using your left hand...
Drain plugs with crush washers don't need a torque wrench, just common sense.
Yes, lubricant makes a difference. When in doubt, follow directions.
Ed