I just bought the Service Manager Bulletin 25-149 for $6.00 and downloaded the PDF file. It says that the retailer must confirm vehicle eligibiliy prior to beginning repair for this extended warranty. Then is goes on to say they must inquire via VRC (what ever that is) - Vehicle Warranty where the message "ELIGIBLE FOR ELECT. THROTTLE SYS" will appear. and that only vehicles with this message are eligible for the extended warranthy.
(As an interesting note at the bottom of page one is the quote
"Fixed Right -- First Time" )
Volvo is telling the dealers that repairs or replacements must be based on Diagnostic Trouble Codes (and not just the fact that car is surging, stalling, acceleration and running like h---. My comments.)
Within this SMB they reference the TNN 25-149D, (also available for $6.00). It is a 26 page document that give the cleaning instructions and replacement procedures. This document references TNN 25-149-A and TNN 25-149-B. One interesting comment is that cleaning bust always be preceded by fault-tracing acording to VIDA and TNN 25-149-A.
Extended Warranty Description
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DonWillson
- Posts: 62
- Joined: 31 October 2005
- Year and Model: 2000 V70XC
- Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Extended Warranty Description
Announcing my affiliation with XeMODeX, Inc. as Internet correspondent and consultant to Volvophiles needing help with failing ETMs. See http://FixYourETM.com. For the full history of this problem see http://VEXEDvolvo.org
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pep
I just got off the phone with the manager of the service department of my local dealer. I was questioning when I could get the computer upgrade (he said March). I still have not received a letter from Volvo. I also quized him about how dealers would determine when a car gets a new ETM. He basically said what you just did. They won't be replaced unless they throw a "hard code". I should have asked him what a soft code would be. I went on to explain that when my ETM failed, I had no prior warning it might fail (I knew nothing about the ETM). Mine failed on a highway which put me in limp mode and eventually dead on the side of the road. I was towed to a dealer and paid for the replacement. I am not sure how a warrenty extension on this part is going to be helpful if it can only be replaced once it dies totally. He also talked about cleaning. How is this going to help? Hasn't it already been proven to be just a stop gap measure until it fails totally? I also asked him specifically how the computer upgrade would prevent the ETM from failing again. He answered honestly that he was unsure because they had not had training yet. What do we know about the computer upgrade? Is it only available in certain parts of the country? Why can't I get mine upgraded in the midwest?
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DonWillson
- Posts: 62
- Joined: 31 October 2005
- Year and Model: 2000 V70XC
- Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
This worries me a great deal. I am not sure where but on one reference says that the software upgrade is designed to prevent 'false alarms'. As I understand it, in California to pass the emission test you cannot have any fault codes in the computer dealing with the emission system. It might be as simple as a loose gas cap. I would guess that they want to make if more tolerant of faults that do not go into a limp home mode.
I would like the software to go the other direction, to catch erratic operation such as surging, hesitation and even dying, which can happen witout setting a code.
From VEXEDvolvo.org, remember that a severe code, i.e., no oil pressure, is set immediately. However, a 'nice to know' but no engine damage code, requires the code to occur on two successive driving cycles. Example: Coming back from vacation you feel a code and get a message, the code is set as pending, you stop for gas, and continue on and you get the code again, now it is then set as permanent. But, if you get gas in town and only drive a mile or so at city speeds and a code is not felt or displayed, the pending code is cleared.
I will try to talk to a William Shapiro next week. This problem is my first "R", 'Replace without hassle" based on customer complaints. Remember the Ford/Firestone fiasco, people went in with tires of all ages and all they had to do is ask for replacements.
A week or so ago I talked with CARB and they were unaware of the fact that replacements were beginning to fail.
Don Willson for VEXED
[email protected]
VEXEDvolvo.org
I would like the software to go the other direction, to catch erratic operation such as surging, hesitation and even dying, which can happen witout setting a code.
From VEXEDvolvo.org, remember that a severe code, i.e., no oil pressure, is set immediately. However, a 'nice to know' but no engine damage code, requires the code to occur on two successive driving cycles. Example: Coming back from vacation you feel a code and get a message, the code is set as pending, you stop for gas, and continue on and you get the code again, now it is then set as permanent. But, if you get gas in town and only drive a mile or so at city speeds and a code is not felt or displayed, the pending code is cleared.
I will try to talk to a William Shapiro next week. This problem is my first "R", 'Replace without hassle" based on customer complaints. Remember the Ford/Firestone fiasco, people went in with tires of all ages and all they had to do is ask for replacements.
A week or so ago I talked with CARB and they were unaware of the fact that replacements were beginning to fail.
Don Willson for VEXED
[email protected]
VEXEDvolvo.org
Announcing my affiliation with XeMODeX, Inc. as Internet correspondent and consultant to Volvophiles needing help with failing ETMs. See http://FixYourETM.com. For the full history of this problem see http://VEXEDvolvo.org
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VolvoXCv70nevragain
My software upgrade fix lasted only 1 day. After a few hours of driving it stalled again. Good thing it didn't stall while they were evaluating it for a trade in. For me it only has to last another 1 to 2 weeks as I will be driving an RX330. I have had enough!!! 
The software upgrade probably makes the sensors ignore minor defects in the signal from the throttle until the whole thing fails completely. Sure this will stop the surging and hesitation until the car stalls completely. How can a software upgrade solve a mechanical defect in the throttle????? This is a bandaid fix!!!!! This is dangerous!!!!! I will not play Russian Roulette with my life. This thing is a ticking time bomb. The only way to protect yourself is to change the throttle at the first sign of trouble. With this new software upgrade this may be later rather than sooner.
Round and round the two throttle butterfly position potentiometers goes.
Whether the softer thick film resistor wears out, nobody knows?
The software upgrade probably makes the sensors ignore minor defects in the signal from the throttle until the whole thing fails completely. Sure this will stop the surging and hesitation until the car stalls completely. How can a software upgrade solve a mechanical defect in the throttle????? This is a bandaid fix!!!!! This is dangerous!!!!! I will not play Russian Roulette with my life. This thing is a ticking time bomb. The only way to protect yourself is to change the throttle at the first sign of trouble. With this new software upgrade this may be later rather than sooner.
Round and round the two throttle butterfly position potentiometers goes.
Whether the softer thick film resistor wears out, nobody knows?
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Guest
It's NOT whether ....... it's WHEN.VolvoXCv70nevragain wrote:Round and round the two throttle butterfly position potentiometers goes.
Whether the softer thick film resistor wears out, nobody knows?
Scratching a hard metallic finger across a softer resistive film will ALWAYS wear thru to the poly substrate. It's just a matter of time, and their half-assed cleanings, S/W reloads and extended warranties do NOT solve the problem ..... rather only delay it until the customer is again out of warranty and stranded on the side of the road ... or dead.
Shame on Volvo, their forefathers are rolling in their graves.
After my experience with ETM replacement. I can confirm the everything people have said
- Dealer need a code to do warranty repair. It makes sense Volvo won't pay for repairs based on customer heresay. Some complaints might be correctly traced to ETM but others won't.
- My failures wasn't catastrophic limp home. During the early stage of my ETM failure, I would experience sudden loss of power + Performance Reduced message. Restart gets back to normal. Occurance frequency increased over time.
- When you get performance reduced followed by a restart which the problems disappear, the ECM won't store a code. So the dealer can't do anything.
- Finally, I got a successive Performance Reduced message. Was able to see a stored code using by OBDII reader. The code translated to Volvo's "ETM internal failure" code. So I brought it into the dealer. They confirmed and replaced it.
So in my case, there was plenty warning that didn't leave me stranded. However, it is desirable to diagnose this at the earlist possible stage to avoid leaving people stranded.
Here my thoughts on how to do early stage failure diagnostics
- Have an ODBII reader with you in the car. Read the code when Performance Reduced message shows up and before shutting off the engine. If it is ETM and doesn't occur on the next drive cycle. You might still have a better shot at convincing the dealer based on your diagnostic. But certainly, most people might not have this equipment or know how to operate it. It also won't help people getting catatrophic failure without prior warning. It also won't make the first/early occurance any less dangerous on the road.
- Drive straight to the nearest dealer when you get a Performance Reduced message and don't shut the engine off. Get them to read it before the goes disppear.
- The codes are supposed to be eraced when the same failure doesn't occur on the following drive cycle. If you get Performance Reduced message and shut the engine off. If your next drive cycle is to a dealer and have them read the pending ocde prior to shutting the engine off, I think they can read the code. I didn't confirm this. Just deduction from learning about OBDII codes.
- Since Volvo is updating the software. I suggested to NHTSA that Volvo could change to software to store ETM codes during a single drive cycle occurance. They might even record a little history on how often ETM codes occured within how many drive cycles. This would give Volvo + consumer both a better chance of catching this problem early on.
My failed ETM was an yellow stickered part at between 80-90k miles on the car. I got the car used at 46k so the ETM was probably replaced once before. Maybe yellow and white stickered ETM reveals different early failure symptoms. Perhap Don might have some statistics on this.
These aren't substitutes for a redesign effort. However, it is desirable to catch this as early as possible to minimize the possible dangerous driving conditions.
- Dealer need a code to do warranty repair. It makes sense Volvo won't pay for repairs based on customer heresay. Some complaints might be correctly traced to ETM but others won't.
- My failures wasn't catastrophic limp home. During the early stage of my ETM failure, I would experience sudden loss of power + Performance Reduced message. Restart gets back to normal. Occurance frequency increased over time.
- When you get performance reduced followed by a restart which the problems disappear, the ECM won't store a code. So the dealer can't do anything.
- Finally, I got a successive Performance Reduced message. Was able to see a stored code using by OBDII reader. The code translated to Volvo's "ETM internal failure" code. So I brought it into the dealer. They confirmed and replaced it.
So in my case, there was plenty warning that didn't leave me stranded. However, it is desirable to diagnose this at the earlist possible stage to avoid leaving people stranded.
Here my thoughts on how to do early stage failure diagnostics
- Have an ODBII reader with you in the car. Read the code when Performance Reduced message shows up and before shutting off the engine. If it is ETM and doesn't occur on the next drive cycle. You might still have a better shot at convincing the dealer based on your diagnostic. But certainly, most people might not have this equipment or know how to operate it. It also won't help people getting catatrophic failure without prior warning. It also won't make the first/early occurance any less dangerous on the road.
- Drive straight to the nearest dealer when you get a Performance Reduced message and don't shut the engine off. Get them to read it before the goes disppear.
- The codes are supposed to be eraced when the same failure doesn't occur on the following drive cycle. If you get Performance Reduced message and shut the engine off. If your next drive cycle is to a dealer and have them read the pending ocde prior to shutting the engine off, I think they can read the code. I didn't confirm this. Just deduction from learning about OBDII codes.
- Since Volvo is updating the software. I suggested to NHTSA that Volvo could change to software to store ETM codes during a single drive cycle occurance. They might even record a little history on how often ETM codes occured within how many drive cycles. This would give Volvo + consumer both a better chance of catching this problem early on.
My failed ETM was an yellow stickered part at between 80-90k miles on the car. I got the car used at 46k so the ETM was probably replaced once before. Maybe yellow and white stickered ETM reveals different early failure symptoms. Perhap Don might have some statistics on this.
These aren't substitutes for a redesign effort. However, it is desirable to catch this as early as possible to minimize the possible dangerous driving conditions.
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wvcox
Hello Everyone,
Just thought I'd add our 2 cents, just dropped our car off today at the dealer, they're going to diagnose and if it does in fact look like the codes point to the ETM then they'll do the replacement as our car's VIN checked out OK for the replacement. If they can't pull the codes we'll be charged a $88 diagnostic fee to determine what the cause would be. I've already cleaned the TB before taking it in so we'll see how they report back to tell if they're jerking my chain.
Thanks to everyone for bringing this whole situation to light!
I'll report back Monday after the dealer gives me the good or bad news...
Happy New Year!
Just thought I'd add our 2 cents, just dropped our car off today at the dealer, they're going to diagnose and if it does in fact look like the codes point to the ETM then they'll do the replacement as our car's VIN checked out OK for the replacement. If they can't pull the codes we'll be charged a $88 diagnostic fee to determine what the cause would be. I've already cleaned the TB before taking it in so we'll see how they report back to tell if they're jerking my chain.
Thanks to everyone for bringing this whole situation to light!
I'll report back Monday after the dealer gives me the good or bad news...
Happy New Year!
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DonWillson
- Posts: 62
- Joined: 31 October 2005
- Year and Model: 2000 V70XC
- Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
How did you clean the ETM? I just downloadet the TECH-notes 25-149D and they have all of the cleaning procedures for the different engines. Most require you to remove power steering pumps and/or alternator and/or intake manifold and/or fan shroud and hoses and ducts. It also shows that the ETM was not disconnected electrically. Is this the way you did it and how long did it take? Did you use a new gasket?wvcox wrote:Hello Everyone,
I've already cleaned the TB before taking it in so we'll see how they report back to tell if they're jerking my chain.
Announcing my affiliation with XeMODeX, Inc. as Internet correspondent and consultant to Volvophiles needing help with failing ETMs. See http://FixYourETM.com. For the full history of this problem see http://VEXEDvolvo.org
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guest
when you clean the throttle you do not have to take any accesories off ie: p/s pump, alternator, or intake. the only reason you would take these off, if you actually read the tnn is if you were cleaning the pcv. and they have a special cleaner to clean the throttles. if you use just any throttle cleaner it is proved eat away at the brushes in the throttle. also if the throttle has a white label on it, it is an original throttle. if it has a yellow label it has been replaced already. and one more thing the software downloads do actually work.
thanks
kris
thanks
kris
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