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'96 850R Very low mpg, very low power.

Help, Advice and DIY Tutorials on Volvo's P80 platform cars -- Volvo's 1990s "bread and butter" cars -- powered by the ubiquitous and durable Volvo inline 5-cylinder engine.

1992 - 1997 850, including 850 R, 850 T-5R, 850 T-5, 850 GLT
1997 - 2000 S70, S70 AWD
1997 - 2000 V70, V70 AWD
1997 - 2000 V70-XC
1997 - 2004 C70

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mercuric
Posts: 233
Joined: 15 February 2013
Year and Model: 1997 850 T5
Location: Austin, TX
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Re: '96 850R Very low mpg, very low power.

Post by mercuric »

Some more thoughts, probably absolutely worthless, but since the usual suspects don't seem to be paying off for you...

You mentioned "FPR tested, not leaking" -- What did you mean by leaking? Doesn't dump fuel into the intake by it's vacuum hose, or that the system holds pressure after shut down for 20 minutes as specified by Volvo? Both are valid concerns.

Also, it appears after reading over this thread you make no reference to the RPM sensor or knock sensors, both inputs to the Motronic 4.3 ECU.

knock sensor problems are supposed to throw a code, and to my knowledge anything but a common failure, but it wouldn't hurt to check the wiring and clean the connectors. these can't be resistance tested as far as I understand. the KS does cause the ECU to ease timing and dump in more fuel, so... at least it's on the lines of running weak and rich.
B5234T/B5204T/B5234T5: If the knock sensors detect that the engine is knocking beyond a specific threshold value, the timing will be initially retarded and the fuel/air mixture will be subsequently enriched to eliminate knocking. If the knocking does not stop despite these measures, the control module will reduce the boost pressure until the knocking ceases.
The RPM sensor, when malfunctioning, usually results in a no-start or random stalling/ignition dropout, and the tach will jump/jiggle or drop to zero (as the RPM sensor feeds the tach) -- but with all you've already been through, it wouldn't hurt to inspect the wiring harness to it and clean it's electrical connections. You should have 260-340 ohms across the terminals. The RPM and CMP sensor work together to allow the ECU to determine the crankshaft position and working cycle.

One other component that's critical that you haven't mentioned is the ignition coil. While these aren't common failure items, pretty rare actually, a weak coil does often show it's worst at high RPMs, as the demand on it is much higher. Inability to rev past a certain RPM is not uncommon with ignition coil failure, usually caused by dielectric failure in the coil and resulting internal arcing. However, it's usually accompanied by misfiring, rough running, sputter, or other symptoms of intermittent spark.

These three items are all unlikely, IMHO, to contribute to the problem you have described.. But since we're out of ideas I figured a look at the list of inputs to the ECU would be a good place to start -- process of elimination.
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Last edited by mercuric on 27 Feb 2013, 00:55, edited 1 time in total.

bmessina
Posts: 64
Joined: 13 November 2012
Year and Model: '01 S80 T6, '61 210
Location: Peoria, IL

Post by bmessina »

Great, great post right there. Thank you for that. I can address a few things now.

RE: FPR test. I checked for fuel coming down the vacuum hose (none), and fuel pressure. Previously the system did not hold pressure after shutdown, but operating pressure was at spec (44ish psi). Since then I have replaced the fuel pump but have not tested pressure again.

RE: RPM Sensor, I've checked the resistance values, they were in spec.

RE: Coil, I had a spare coil and swapped it in to see if that made a difference. It did not.

Yeah, I'm going to go back to the beginning on this one. Even just to get to the basic "is it fuel or is it spark?" I'll be checking fuel pressure again, etc etc. FUN!

mercuric
Posts: 233
Joined: 15 February 2013
Year and Model: 1997 850 T5
Location: Austin, TX
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Post by mercuric »

bmessina wrote:Great, great post right there. Thank you for that. I can address a few things now.

RE: FPR test. I checked for fuel coming down the vacuum hose (none), and fuel pressure. Previously the system did not hold pressure after shutdown, but operating pressure was at spec (44ish psi). Since then I have replaced the fuel pump but have not tested pressure again.

RE: RPM Sensor, I've checked the resistance values, they were in spec.

RE: Coil, I had a spare coil and swapped it in to see if that made a difference. It did not.

Yeah, I'm going to go back to the beginning on this one. Even just to get to the basic "is it fuel or is it spark?" I'll be checking fuel pressure again, etc etc. FUN!
Cheers :)

I'd look into that failure to hold pressure after shutdown, if it still exists. According to VIDA: Line pressure must not drop below 200 kPa (29psi) in less than 20 minutes. If this test fails, the following is offered for diagnosis: Incorrect residual pressure readings may be due to leakage from injectors, connections, pressure regulator, fuel pump non-return valve or lines

If you find it to not hold pressure, you might try the same pressure tools on another brick or other pressure source -- Just to make sure it's not the tool itself, before digging into the sick brick :)

Good luck!!

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erikv11
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Year and Model: 850, V70, S60R, XC70
Location: Iowa
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Post by erikv11 »

You can buy a fuel pressure gauge fairly cheap at an auto parts store or Harbor Freight. Some people use cheap tire gauges for this purpose, too. It ruins them, but they are pretty cheap ...
'95 854 T-5R, Motronic 4.4, 185k
'98 V70, T5 tune-injectors-turbo, LPT engine, 304k, daily driver
'06 S60 R, 197k
'07 XC70, black, 205k
'07 XC70, willow green, 212k
'99 Camry V6 :shock: 153k
gone: '96 NA 850 210k, '98 NA V70 182k, '98 S70 NA 225k, '96 855 NA 169k

mercuric
Posts: 233
Joined: 15 February 2013
Year and Model: 1997 850 T5
Location: Austin, TX
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Post by mercuric »

erikv11 wrote:Some people use cheap tire gauges for this purpose, too. It ruins them, but they are pretty cheap ...
I was wondering if that would work!

bmessina
Posts: 64
Joined: 13 November 2012
Year and Model: '01 S80 T6, '61 210
Location: Peoria, IL

Post by bmessina »

I have a setup for measuring the fuel pressure... kinda. I'd still like to get an angled schrader valve adapter at some point, but what i have works. I use a real fuel pressure dial, but hook it up to the rail through a cheap air pressure kit.

northernlights
Posts: 251
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Year and Model: 850 Turbo 1994
Location: Florida and/or Raleigh NC, depending on the day
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Post by northernlights »

bmessina wrote:I tried the "ground the same place to the battery" suggestion, and unfortunately it did not produce the same results as when I jump started the car.

I'm going to organize to start checking the sensor readings at the ECU connector... Very carefully.
I'm sorry for seemingly beating this to death, but the way you described the car as behaving after the dead battery/jumpstart incident is bizarre. With that in mind, have you disconnected the battery before a restart? I wonder if the ECU learns something after a restart that it didn't know initially after a dead (or maybe disconnected ) battery?

bmessina
Posts: 64
Joined: 13 November 2012
Year and Model: '01 S80 T6, '61 210
Location: Peoria, IL

Post by bmessina »

Did the voltage drop test. Positive side went fine (less than .2v drop under load), failed the negative side though. .7v drop. I've checked and cleaned 3 grounds so far. That is, the two braided engine grounds to the chassis and 1 battery ground to chassis. I can just barely see the battery to engine ground, but it looks ok.

Is failing that test indicative of anything else?

*edit*

Also, I set up the LED blinker circut for the OBD port to test for codes. I've got a CEL, but a generic OBD reader doesn't see any codes. The LED circuit now only spits out 1-1-1, all clear.

bmessina
Posts: 64
Joined: 13 November 2012
Year and Model: '01 S80 T6, '61 210
Location: Peoria, IL

Post by bmessina »

Still working on this...

Went through and cleaned the rest of the grounds this week, while I was swapping in another alternator (voltage drop in testing was .6-.8v). Still getting the same voltage drop, car still runs like crap. It gets progressively worse as it fouls the plugs, it's almost time for another set... again.

I've read a few posts of people having similar performance issues due to knock sensors, even with no codes. Those are the only sensors I haven't touched so far, so I'll be looking to those next.

I'm going to start timing myself on the intake manifold removal, I've done it so many times in the last few months.

Also, I started getting code 233 long term idle air trim upper limit. Doesn't that basically mean that the fuel system has reached it's max adjustment limit?

wilson850r
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Year and Model: V70R 2005
Location: Arizona
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Post by wilson850r »

I had a similar problem on my 97 850R. Everytime on parked on an incline as soon as I would start the car that arrow would come on. Car was very sluggish. As soon as I cleard the code with my scanner it was back to regular performance. I would look at that PNP solenoid.
Rick

2005 V70R
1996 850R Sedan - Gone
1997 850R Wagon - Wrecked Sold
2006 Scion XB Special Release 4.0

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