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1994 850 10V No spark beyond distributor cap

Help, Advice and DIY Tutorials on Volvo's P80 platform cars -- Volvo's 1990s "bread and butter" cars -- powered by the ubiquitous and durable Volvo inline 5-cylinder engine.

1992 - 1997 850, including 850 R, 850 T-5R, 850 T-5, 850 GLT
1997 - 2000 S70, S70 AWD
1997 - 2000 V70, V70 AWD
1997 - 2000 V70-XC
1997 - 2004 C70

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WRITEX
Posts: 4
Joined: 11 October 2015
Year and Model: 850 2.5 NA 10V, 1994
Location: Norway

1994 850 10V No spark beyond distributor cap

Post by WRITEX »

Hi, I have a 1994 Volvo 850 10V non-turbo with around 190k miles on it. I bought the car a year ago. I currently have a no spark condition, and I am unable to read fault codes seeing as the OBD1 unit on the car is not functional. I have replaced a lot of parts in search for a fix and I recently discovered that electricity is coming through from the ignition coil, but there is no spark beyond the distributor cap.


I feel like you guys will need to hear the backstory of the car.
It has a "new" engine said to have around 65k miles on it. The engine had to be replaced in July because the old one blew a cylinder and tore the cylinder head due to a completely clogged EGR system, or so I was told.

Before the engine swap, the car had been acting weird for months but I had neither knowledge or money to do anything about it. It was consuming more oil and coolant fluid than fuel, and even the fuel consumption was extremely bad.

After the breakdown, I ended up getting the car towed to an associate of my dad. He is the guy who performed the engine swap. The engine code is the same as the old one (B5252S), by the way.

After the engine swap, I had the car running for 3 weeks. The only issue I had was that it would not start for the ride back home after short trips to the convenience store, gas station, local shopping mall, etc. It would always start on first try but just die out of nowhere seconds later. I would always have to wait 5-20 minutes before it would start again, because after the dying part it just cranks and cranks but doesn't start.

Three weeks after the engine swap, I went to a friends house and when I was heading home it wouldn't start no matter what I did. I even tried to push start it down a hill. It started but died seconds later. I ended up getting it towed back home. This is where I have been stuck for months now.

It wasn't getting any fuel, so I replaced the fuel pump with a brand new one. I started the car but it died while idling around 20 seconds later. I tried to start it a few more times but it would just die on idle. I'm certain that it's getting fuel now though.

I didn't really know what else I could do so I called the guy who performed the engine swap and had him look at it. He replaced the ignition coil and the camshaft position sensor. The car then ran fine for about half a day. I had to stop at an intersection and when I hit the clutch and the car went into idle, it died. It was now back to how it was before. Cranks but doesn't start.

Discovering that there was no spark, I got another ignition coil on a warranty claim. The car then ran fine for an hour before the same thing happened again, only difference this time was that I could feel the car performing worse and worse before it started giving off choking noises when I touched the throttle pedal. I barely made it off the highway and onto a empty parking lot where it died like it has done before. I had to get it towed back home again.

A few days later, I once again replaced the ignition coil. This time, there was no difference what so ever. The car cranks and cranks but doesn't start. A friend of mine came by to measure voltage and stuff, and so we discovered that there is 11 point something volts going from the coil wire into the distributor cap, but no spark on any of the plugs.
I have replaced the ignition coil, all plug wires, the distributor cap, the ignition rotor, and all the spark plugs. Everything in that area is brand new but it still has no spark beyond the distributor cap.

I was told that there might be a problem with the ECU not being compatible with the new engine. I don't understand how that could be the problem seeing as it's the same engine code and it "ran fine" for 3 weeks.
The only difference between the old and the new engine is that the new one was sitting in a automatic while mine's a manual. Nevertheless, I tried putting in a ECU from a pretty much identical car. There was no difference.

I have been in contact with countless mechanics and experienced guys but this car just leaves them all baffled.

I'm from Norway. I apologize if my English or the way I have written all this is confusing.
If you've come this far down the page, thanks a lot for reading.

Eric
Nov 2019 - *current car* :: 2007 Volvo S60 D5
Nov 2017 - Nov 2019 :: 2012 Toyota GT86
May 2016 - Nov 2017 :: 1999 Volvo V70 2.5T AWD
Jun 2013 - Dec 2015 :: 1994 Volvo 850 2.5 10V

Ozark Lee
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Post by Ozark Lee »

You should have considerably more than 11 volts out of the coil to the cap - more like 20,000 volts and a spark should jump a gap if you pulled the wire off of the coil and held it close to the coil. Be at least prepared to get bit if you try that. It won't kill you but it gets your attention if it bites you.

Not having the OBD-I is a hindrance as well, is it the jumper wire that goes to the ports or the switch that is keeping the A-B ports from working? The box snaps apart and you can repair both the button buy cleaning the contacts and the flywire by soldering it back onto the PC board.

I am going to guess that you have a Fenix ECU with a 10 valve but I'm not 100% sure of that, we don't have the 10 valve engines in the US where most of us are from. The flash code sets are different for the Fenix than they are for the Motronic or the Jetronic but I'm sure we could figure that out if we had some codes to work with.

Just a wild guess but based on the symptoms I am guessing a bad cam position sensor. If you can get some codes it would give us a bunch more to work with.

...Lee
'94 850 N/A 5 speed
'96 Platinum Edition Turbo
Previous:
1999 V70XC - Nautic Blue - Totaled while parked.
1999 V70XC - RIP - Wrecked Parts Car.
1998 S70 T5
1996 850 N/A
1989 740 GLT
1986 740 GLT
1972 142 Grand Luxe

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misha
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Post by misha »

In addition to Lee's guess,i would add fuel pump relay and master fuel injection relay located at cooling fan carrier.
Fuel pump relay because you mentioned that the car wasn't getting fuel.
Master fuel injection relay because it can shut down the car immediatelly.
'97 850 2.5 20v / fully equipped / Motronic 4.4 from the factory / upgraded with S,V,C,XC70 instrument cluster / polar white wagon
History of Volvos in the family:
'71 144 S
'73 144 De Luxe
'78 244 DL
'78 244 DL
'79 244 GLE
'85 340 GLS

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WRITEX
Posts: 4
Joined: 11 October 2015
Year and Model: 850 2.5 NA 10V, 1994
Location: Norway

Post by WRITEX »

Ozark Lee wrote:You should have considerably more than 11 volts out of the coil to the cap - more like 20,000 volts and a spark should jump a gap if you pulled the wire off of the coil and held it close to the coil. Be at least prepared to get bit if you try that. It won't kill you but it gets your attention if it bites you.

Not having the OBD-I is a hindrance as well, is it the jumper wire that goes to the ports or the switch that is keeping the A-B ports from working? The box snaps apart and you can repair both the button buy cleaning the contacts and the flywire by soldering it back onto the PC board.

I am going to guess that you have a Fenix ECU with a 10 valve but I'm not 100% sure of that, we don't have the 10 valve engines in the US where most of us are from. The flash code sets are different for the Fenix than they are for the Motronic or the Jetronic but I'm sure we could figure that out if we had some codes to work with.

Just a wild guess but based on the symptoms I am guessing a bad cam position sensor. If you can get some codes it would give us a bunch more to work with.

...Lee
If I should be getting more than 11-12 volts out of the coil cap, what could be wrong? The coil itself is brand new. I don't know what or how to troubleshoot that area. :(

Regarding the OBD1 unit... I have only checked the A-side, and 4 out of the 6 ports are non-responsive.
The non-responsive ones are A1, A5, A6 and A7. It looks as if the "inputs" has been ripped out.

If by Fenix ECU you mean SIEMENS, then yes that's what I have.

I have replaced the cam position sensor, without any luck.
misha wrote:In addition to Lee's guess,i would add fuel pump relay and master fuel injection relay located at cooling fan carrier.
Fuel pump relay because you mentioned that the car wasn't getting fuel.
Master fuel injection relay because it can shut down the car immediatelly.
I'm certain that the car is getting fuel now. However, I will check both relays tomorrow seeing as both these relays has been mentioned pretty much everywhere.
I was under the impression that said relays wouldn't matter as the car should be having spark regardless whether the relays are functioning properly. I have no idea though.


Thanks a lot for replying guys.
Eric
Nov 2019 - *current car* :: 2007 Volvo S60 D5
Nov 2017 - Nov 2019 :: 2012 Toyota GT86
May 2016 - Nov 2017 :: 1999 Volvo V70 2.5T AWD
Jun 2013 - Dec 2015 :: 1994 Volvo 850 2.5 10V

scot850
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Post by scot850 »

One thing to be careful with these older 850's is a problem I had with a 93 GLT. The dealer did some work on the car and it would just cut out while driving, or sometimes not start.

What I discovered was that they had run the cable for the cam position sensor (positioned below the distributor) so it ran very close to the distributor. The distributor signal masked the cam position signal and cut the engine. Repositioning the cable as far away from the distributor as possible restored the car to health.

2nd thing to check is that the ignition is working at the ignition switch.

The immobiliser could also be cutting the power.

When I visited my parents in Scotland they have a 96 850 wagon with 10V motor. On the 'A' block, some of the connections are just not there. They may not have been removed, but just never existed. Sorry, can't remember which ones.

Neil.
2006 V70 2.5T AWD Polestar tune
2000 V70 R - still being an endless PITA
2006 XC70 - Our son now has this and still parked in our garage
2003 Toyota 4Runner V8 Limited
2015 Kia Sportage EX-L - Sold
1993 850 GLT -Sold
1998 V70 XC - Sold
1997 Volvo 850 SE NA - Went to niece in California - Sold
2000 V70 SE NA - Sold

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WRITEX
Posts: 4
Joined: 11 October 2015
Year and Model: 850 2.5 NA 10V, 1994
Location: Norway

Post by WRITEX »

I know I'm getting fuel, but I checked the fuel injection relay and the fuel pump relay anyway.
Both seems to be working. I can feel the "tick" when I turn on the ignition. I even tried to jump-wire where the fuel pump relay goes in just to see if there was any difference - and there wasn't.

Cam position sensor and something that looks like a crank sensor(?) has been replaced without any luck. I don't know if the cables are routed too close to the distributor, but I should be able to take a look at it if I know what I'm looking for.

What's weird is that I actually managed to start the car today. It's happened a few times before, but not in a long time - and it's always been willing to start just that one single time. When it started, it instantly jumped to like 3000 RPMs and was stuck at that until I hit the throttle a little bit. It started constantly waving up and down from 2500 to maybe 1500, without me even touching anything. (kind of like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4hgNmL2nlg - not my video, by the way.)

My neighbors got a little upset about the engine noise and the smoke that started to fill the entire neighborhood so I stopped the car. It's now back to not wanting to start. :?

What I don't get is why the car feels like having a spark like maybe twice a month, and why it's always acting different kinds of weird when it does start.


I would honestly like to bypass or disable the immobilizer regardless of whether it is the problem or not. Is there any easy way to do that?
Nov 2019 - *current car* :: 2007 Volvo S60 D5
Nov 2017 - Nov 2019 :: 2012 Toyota GT86
May 2016 - Nov 2017 :: 1999 Volvo V70 2.5T AWD
Jun 2013 - Dec 2015 :: 1994 Volvo 850 2.5 10V

cn90
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Post by cn90 »

Intermittent stalling and no-start in the 850 series, consider a new CRANK (not Cam) sensor. Get a used Crank sensor from the junk yard for cheap and test it out.
Or if you have a friend with similar 850 car, swap it in and see what happens.

You said new plug wires, but did you use Bougicord or something else.
Did you replace the wire from the coil ---> distributor cap?
2004 V70 2.5T 100K+
2005 XC90 2.5T 110K+

cn90
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Post by cn90 »

1. Cam sensor: you said you replaced it.

2. ECU: Very rarely the case, however if you have a junk yard ECU, try it.

3. CRANK sensor as mentioned above.

4. Main relay near Fan Shroud, any gurus can chime in?

5. ECT: you can get all kinds of symptoms from this thing.
2004 V70 2.5T 100K+
2005 XC90 2.5T 110K+

Sommerfeldt
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Post by Sommerfeldt »

Have you checked your IAC? It does have a reputation for sticking on your type of engine, iirc.

You said that your car is smoking all over the neighborhood - what color smoke is it? Black is fuel, blue is oil and white is coolant...

As always... check all your hoses for leaks.

- S
2018 S90 T8 Inscription - glossy black with amber interior and dark as night rear windows.
[Gone] '96 855 T5 - R bumper and spoiler, Koni Yellows & blue H&R springs all 'round.
[Sold] '97 S70 T5
[Gone] '95 855 T5-R - one of the black ones... sadly stolen and wrecked.

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