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98 V79 NA front end vibration (control arms replaced) Topic is solved

Help, Advice and DIY Tutorials on Volvo's P80 platform cars -- Volvo's 1990s "bread and butter" cars -- powered by the ubiquitous and durable Volvo inline 5-cylinder engine.

1992 - 1997 850, including 850 R, 850 T-5R, 850 T-5, 850 GLT
1997 - 2000 S70, S70 AWD
1997 - 2000 V70, V70 AWD
1997 - 2000 V70-XC
1997 - 2004 C70

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98v70dad
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Re: 98 V79 NA front end vibration problem - help me diagnose it

Post by 98v70dad »

sleddriver wrote:OP: I understand your frustration. The sled is now 19yrs old. New tires, lower control arms, struts, spring seats, & bearings, new outer tie rods. Axles are > 10yrs old and not OEM. Replaced by indy before I understood the consequence of that action. Wish I had them back....

1.. Could be wheel bearings....could be. Listen with a stethoscope.
2. Doubtful
3. ""
4. Likely...especially if it gets worse with gas on/gas off. It has a longer torque arm. Carrier bearing could be worn or bolts loose. Hub bolts could be loose.

You are correct that its frustrating. I suspected the rack and pinion nearly 6 months ago and decided to replace the wheels and tires first since they were old and needed to be replaced - my daughter beat the wheels to death when she was learning to drive and the tires were just old. I replaced the tie rods just because they are classic root causes of high speed front end vibration. Of course, a steering rack with slop is going to act like a bad tie rod.

My inner and outer tie rods were replaced in August. They are lemforder and trw (or sdi cant remember) - OE parts. They are tight and as good as it gets. While I was doing that I had plenty of time to look at and diagnose the control arms. They are originals but the joints are tight...no slop. The rubber bearing covers on the control arms are split, but they are OK for now. In checking the tie rods I noted that there is, in fact, some slop in the rack. Its about 1/8" when holding the wheel at 9 and 3 o'clock. I can hear a tick sound (metal on metal) when I rock the wheel with a 3 and 9 o'clock push-pull. I've wondered about it as the possible root cause of the vibration but figured maybe the little bit of slop goes away when the steering system is under pressure. Others have posted threads about a small amount of slop in the steering rack as if it was normal. My steering rack doesn't leak and never has. I didn't post it as a possibilty because I ruled out it (but maybe I was wrong).

The vibration started about 18 months ago and has gotten worse with time. I've had 2 alignments in that time frame. Both shops who did the alignments told me that its not possible to adjust the rear. I believe the alignment is OK. I have my old tires in the driveway while I decide what to do with them (they have plenty of tread left and I may sell them). They are all evenly worn and near perfect for old tires. The rear tires are 4.5 years old Michelins. My vibration DOES NOT appear under acceleration (usually) - sometimes it does. I also sometimes get a slight warble around 50 mph which is barely noticeable and it goes away quickly. It always appears on deceleration from 70 mph down through about 65 mph.

Anyhow, it sounds as if we have the same or similar problem and, yes, I agree that it may be the steering rack. I really don't want to believe that because its a bigger job than I really want to do and will cost more than I want to spend to get someone else to fix it. I'm going to research it a bit and see what I can find, especially since you have the same nagging feeling.

beigg
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Post by beigg »

98v70dad wrote:
beigg wrote:I take it you didn't even read what I posted in your tire thread.

Actually, I did read both of your posts. I read everything people post in my threads. In one post you indicated that Pep Boys is a quality shop where you live and in the other you indicated that another shop MIGHT not be willing to service my tires in the future. Neither of those posts really helps me with my vibration problem, though.
https://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/forums ... 32#p415832
ugh smh 850 Turbo fridge

98v70dad
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Post by 98v70dad »

I did read that one too but forgot about it. Its a good suggestion, thanks. I'll check it out on Saturday when I have time to do it.

beigg
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Post by beigg »

no prob. Sucks age is catching us. lol
ugh smh 850 Turbo fridge

98v70dad
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Post by 98v70dad »

Some of the comments here tonight and earlier from another thread I posted have me focusing a little more on the steering rack, the steering hydraulic fluid and the steering fluid pump. My car is 18 years old. When I got it at age 10 I immediately flushed all of the fluids except for the steering fluid. The owners manual has no maintenance interval for the steering fluid. One of the results of low fluid or air in the system is vibration at high speeds, groaning when making sharp turns at low speed and squirrely ("floaty") steering at high speeds. I've got all of those. The groaning only happens occasionally - rarely actually but it happens. The sound comes from the drivers side. I check my fluid level and its always correct but its filthy. I'm going to change it and see what happens. Dirty hydraulic fluid becomes acidic and eats up parts. Hopefully thats not my problem. So I have symptoms of air in the system but no frothy fluid or low fluid level but the level checks OK. Its worth looking into further. At least some of my symptoms are starting to link up with known causes. Can anyone educate me further on this and possible causes/solutions?

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sleddriver
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Post by sleddriver »

98v70dad wrote:......my daughter beat the wheels to death when she was learning to drive and the tires were just old. I replaced the tie rods just because they are classic root causes of high speed front end vibration. Of course, a steering rack with slop is going to act like a bad tie rod.
Given the above, I would suggest you listen to both front wheel bearings. They don't take kindly to such repeated abuse.
98v70dad wrote:In checking the tie rods I noted that there is, in fact, some slop in the rack. Its about 1/8" when holding the wheel at 9 and 3 o'clock. I can hear a tick sound (metal on metal) when I rock the wheel with a 3 and 9 o'clock push-pull. I've wondered about it as the possible root cause of the vibration.....

The vibration started about 18 months ago and has gotten worse with time. I've had 2 alignments in that time frame. Both shops who did the alignments told me that its not possible to adjust the rear. I believe the alignment is OK.

Anyhow, it sounds as if we have the same or similar problem and, yes, I agree that it may be the steering rack. I really don't want to believe that because its a bigger job than I really want to do and will cost more than I want to spend to get someone else to fix it. I'm going to research it a bit and see what I can find, especially since you have the same nagging feeling.
1/8" of slop might be the key. Looks like I'll have to carefully check mine. Including have a neighbor sit in the seat and hold the wheel while I push/pull on a tire.

Both alignment shops are indeed wrong regarding the non-adjustability of the rear. MOF, it must be set first, then the front set from it to assure the thrust angle is correct. Otherwise you'll wind up with a geometry problem. You didn't mention any readouts...perhaps they didn't give you one? I'd go back after doing some further research and show them the paperwork. Then write down before/after settings. And be sure your SW is centered.

Ozark Lee wrote:....Most alignment shops don't understand FWD Volvos and they will wind up chasing their tales trying to get it right. The 850 and 70 series all have passive rear steering so it is important to get the toe adjusted for the rear.

The order of alignment is:

1) Rear Toe - there is no camber or caster adjustment on the rear wheels. The rear toe adjustment is made by loosening the bolts on the rear trailing arms at the bushings that connect the two links.

2) Front Camber - out of the box there is no camber adjustment but if it is needed you can by "Camber Kits" which will give you around +/- 3/4 degree of adjustment.

3) Front toe.

...Lee

Regarding rack replacement: Agreed. Given my past nine months, I have other things to spend money (and time) on. It does bug me that it's not glass-smooth but for now, it can and will wait.

Finally, here's CN90's guide for DIY alignment check: https://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/forums ... =1&t=28454
1998 V70 T5 226,808 miles. Original Owner.
M1 10W-30 HM

clifford06
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Post by clifford06 »

Greetings. I seem to have the same issue. Vibes at highway speed, floaty feel, wanders with grooved pavements. I agree about waiting on this " search and repair " issue. I also have not changed steering fluid, but will do. To work and back home. Got a family to feed.

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sleddriver
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Post by sleddriver »

98v70dad wrote:.... My car is 18 years old. When I got it at age 10 I immediately flushed all of the fluids except for the steering fluid.....I check my fluid level and its always correct but its filthy. I'm going to change it and see what happens....
Wow...same fluid that long, eh? Mine leaked so much I didn't worry about it as it was constantly being topped-up. AT-205 fixed that.

I flushed with Valvoline Max-life 100% syn ATF, soon after doing the same to the transmission. Can't remember if I wrote it up here or BITOG. Cover the top of the alt. with several rags to prevent any ATF from entering! Baster-bulb the reservoir out, pull the return line and plumb it into a large clear jar. Cap off the reservoir and fill with new ATF. With the front end elevated, and the engine OFF, turn the SW lock-to-lock to force out the old and suck in the new. Keep at it until what exits is clear, cherry red.

If you have the capability, you can pull a vacuum on the reservoir for awhile to remove any air.
1998 V70 T5 226,808 miles. Original Owner.
M1 10W-30 HM

98v70dad
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Post by 98v70dad »

sleddriver wrote:
98v70dad wrote:.... My car is 18 years old. When I got it at age 10 I immediately flushed all of the fluids except for the steering fluid.....I check my fluid level and its always correct but its filthy. I'm going to change it and see what happens....
Wow...same fluid that long, eh? Mine leaked so much I didn't worry about it as it was constantly being topped-up. AT-205 fixed that.

I flushed with Valvoline Max-life 100% syn ATF, soon after doing the same to the transmission. Can't remember if I wrote it up here or BITOG. Cover the top of the alt. with several rags to prevent any ATF from entering! Baster-bulb the reservoir out, pull the return line and plumb it into a large clear jar. Cap off the reservoir and fill with new ATF. With the front end elevated, and the engine OFF, turn the SW lock-to-lock to force out the old and suck in the new. Keep at it until what exits is clear, cherry red.

If you have the capability, you can pull a vacuum on the reservoir for awhile to remove any air.
I flushed all of my other cars at about 100,000 miles. The volvo manual doesn't have an interval. I've often looked in the reservoir and thought to myself that its pretty dirty but there was always something that had failed to fix first and it always took 3 hours longer than I figured it would.

Anyhow, it needs it now. I checked the level tonight and its very LOW. It looks like its just touching the dipstick. I must have a slow leak somewhere. I'll flush it Saturday. I find that level checker pretty difficult to read. I check it frequently cold and it always looks OK. Today I checked it cold and then hot when I got home after an hour of driving. It was at the same spot as when it was cold. I can only conclude that the fluid is splashing up onto the stick while driving to about the cold line.

What you describe is exactly how I planned to do the flush. Valvoline Max-life 100% syn ATF is my preferred choice. We must think alike. I could pull a vacuum but I use my vacuum pump to make wine. Wine and ATF vapors is a bad combo for human consumption. On the other hand an Italian brunello might make a nice sip of fluid for the volvo...for about 3 minutes. At least the color is right.

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sleddriver
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Post by sleddriver »

Yep..they don't list an interval for the AT fluid either. But all runs better on non-oxidized! When it gets that particular STINK to it and turns dark, opaque, brick red it's due.

Low fluid makes my pump whine, even though it's not cavitating. You might also want to rinse out the empty reservoir before refilling. Stick a rag in there and see if the surfaces are coated in black.
1998 V70 T5 226,808 miles. Original Owner.
M1 10W-30 HM

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