2005 V70 Non Turbo Intermittent Hard To Start From Hell, VVT, CVVT?

[volvovillian]

2005 V70 Non Turbo Intermittent Hard To Start

I have owned several Volvos over the years, own a 2005 Volvo S60T and have never seen anything like this.

2 years ago the engine started misfiring around 150K. I diagnosed it to the engine. Dealer wanted more money to find out if they could do a valve job they wanted like $5400 for and I said hell no. Instead I talked them down on price to replace entire engine with a Volvo factory replacement.

When the dealer installed the motor, invoice states it ran bad at first and they traced it to a code for the Intake Solenoid Valve which they replaced since the new motor came with this part. The engine ran fine since.

Since purchased with 34,000 miles as certified preowned, we have had a very intermittent hard to start issue (sometimes cranks for up to 10 seconds and acts like it doesn't want to start before finally cranking over).

Of course dealer could not duplicate or find any codes. I replaced the Battery, Air Filter and Spark Plugs after we purchased. Then several years later I literally replaced every part myself that was possibly related with Genuine Volvo Parts Battery, Air Filter, Spark Plugs again, new Ignition Coils twice, Airflow Sensor, Fuel Computer, Map, Cam, Crank Sensors). Coolant Temp Sensor and Fuel Pressure Sensor was replaced when engine was done at dealer). I even had the dealer replace the ECU and most recently the CEM after the locks started rapidly locking and unlocking on their own after starting. I found an invoice stating that the Antenna Ring was also replaced by another dealer before we purchased so previous owner probably had the same issue. The dealer has done a CAN update and updated all software.

This problem continues, even after the engine was replaced with a new engine from the dealer. I thought for sure this would go away after the new engine and everything that has been replaced.

The last time I brought it in the dealer I told them it sounded kind of like it was sputtering a little when it was hard to start. They found it had stored a code for Exhaust Solenoid and said something was off with the timing or something when they monitored it on Volvo's diagnostic system.

The tech noted first step was to replace exhaust solenoid then if continues recommends replacing VVT / CVVT hubs.

We thought the issue was finally resolved but the intermittent hard to start issue where it cranks a lot longer than usual continues and the last time my wife started it she said it was running kind of rough (not normal).

We brought it back to the dealer and I was ready to have the dealer replace the VVT / CVVT hubs thinking this has been the problem all along and that the old hubs were transferred to the new engine.

Well, dealer now tells me the new engine came with new VVT / CVVT hubs and they checked with the foreman and he claims the replacement engines come with VVT / CVVT hubs.

I look up the engine (P/N 8251485) on a dealer's Volvo parts database and it shows a bare front of the engine (no pulleys / hubs). I know the VVT / CVVT pulleys are like $250ea and I'd be surprised if they are included.

Unfortunately, they are now giving me no hope and discouraging me from doing the VVT / CVVT hubs (the price mentioned was out of control) and they seem to just want us to drive this thing until it one day stalls or doesn't start.

To the dealer's credit they've been the best dealer I've ever dealt with so far as far as quality of service and feeling like they're being honest. They actually seem to not want me to spend money.

The only other last thing I could think of is fuel pump (this has the steel tank with no replaceable filter unlike my S60 that has a plastic tank and replaceable fuel filter) but you'd think a fuel pump wouldn't be intermittent.

I was reading a forum post where someone said the solenoids rarely go bad unless blocked with oil and the solenoids were brand new with the engine. I also have the dealer use Castrol Edge Synthetic 5w30 Professional (I usually change my own oil but started having dealer do it again due to warranty). I read someone's forum post that it's often the VVT / CVVT hubs and usually not the solenoids.

I don't know what to do but I've put all this money and time into this vehicle, which I really like only to feel like I don't even want it back from the dealer.

Could dealer be wrong about new VVT / CVVT hubs coming installed on factory replacement engine or if they were on the new engine could they be going bad already in 2 years / 21,000 miles? Worth replacing the fuel pump? Anyone have experience with steel tank fuel pumps with no replaceable filter (are they known not to last as long as the other fuel pumps or does having no replaceable filter mean that these fuel pumps don't last as long or are they problematic)? Also, does anyone know of anything I haven't covered that could cause this, anything I'm missing?

Really appreciate any information or help I can get!

[abscate]

We have had many more solenoids go bad here, than CVVT hubs. You could look up the manufacturer date code on the hubs to see when they were made ?

[volvovillian]

Thanks for the info, I did think about looking at the date codes on the hubs and will do that.

Anyone see anything like this and have any ideas what it could be other than what has already been done?

Also, anyone know if the fuel pumps for steel tanks are problematic or don't last long since they don't have replaceable filters like the fuel pumps for the plastic tanks? Is there a check valve in the fuel pump unit assembly that can go bad?

A while ago it was doing this almost every day after sitting and I expected it. I'd switch the ignition to 2 and wait a few seconds before starting then would start immediately every time. I don't know if it was coincidence but seemed to make it start immediately every time and have never had the hard to start issue when I had done this. I started doing this for a while at the time because it was embarrassing to have it crank for like 10 seconds like some old beater.

The strange thing is sometimes we can start it like 20 different times and will start normally every single time then once will crank for a while almost like it's not going to start. Then sometimes it will do this once during the day 2-3 days in a row. It's never done the hard to start thing back to back either. I just don't know what the hell is left that could cause this besides fuel pump but I didn't think a fuel pump could be intermittent like that.

I have never seen anything like this with all the Volvos I've owned over the years or 2005 S60T.

I really appreciate all the information, ideas and thoughts I could get on this!

[vtl]

Sounds like fuel pump. Broken VVT won't advance angles properly, but that won't prevent engine from starting.

How do you usually start the car? Key inserted and then immediately moved to position III? Try to keep in position II for a few seconds before attempting to start. My 05 XC70 did it 2-3 times a year since I've bought it about 5 years ago. I know I have to replace the pump some day, but priming fuel for like 5 seconds seems to help. Until last year I was moving key quickly and had these very rare intermittent start difficulties.

[precopster]

Get a fuel pressure gauge..and connect it while cranking. It will show if fuel is the issue. Readings of under 40psi will cause hard starting. Ideal pressure is 50-55psi.

Fuel pressure issues can be VERY intermittent.
I agree that the CVVT hubs are coincidental and are steering you to the wrong conclusion.

[jimmy57]

Fuel pressure gauges are cheap at Harbor Freight and you may some other tool outlet store operating in your area that has them for less than $30.
Stainless thanks use the same pump as plastic tanks (not the same pump/sender whole piece but the actual pump). I can't recall a faulty pump not degrading and quitting in a few thousand miles.
The CEM has a soldered in fuel pump relay but again that should have gone to full failure in a much shorter times this has been occurring.

Two more things that can be long term are a starter producing too much EMF affecting the crank sensor and anything else wrong with crank sensor. If you have a pick n pull then you can get the sensor and the holder and change both. As I recall that sensor changed somewhere about 2003 and was the same after on any 5 cylinder P2. Lots of these around.
Long crank also had a fix for a time that involved a large copper washer that the crank sensor (Volvo lit will call it an RPM sensor...) inserted through below the holder but above hole in the trans bell housing.

Have you watched the tachometer to see if there is any unusual behavior while it is long cranking?
Do you get a sense that it starts when the key is released when it takes long cranking?

In my experience with low fuel pressure long crank heat soak starts, you will have an engine that runs rough with a misfiring cylinder for a few seconds as it clears flooding problem if it is a leaking injector or if it is no fuel in rail then the fuel will not reach all injectors at the same time and it will take a few revs (a few injector operating cycles purging vapor to get the liquid fuel to arrive) and then all cylinders "fire". If it runs smooth when it finally starts I would discount fuel problems. Ignition signaling issues are mostly digital, i.e., it is not acting like it will ever run again until that instant something happens and it is running normal like nothing was ever wrong. The problem is a zero until that moment it becomes a one.
I include immobilizer system issues within the ignition category. Immobilizer issues in my experience resolve with a key cycle and don't resolve with continuous starter operation or a release to run position and another cranking period. It requires a pause with key turned back to 0 position (off position where key can be removed).

If by chance you have a key with the latch broken that keeps the key locked 180 degrees from the remote body then it will fail to get immobilizer chip signal and will start if the key/remote body get 180 degrees again with a key off visit in between.

[volvovillian]

Thanks for the information guys, I really appreciate it.

Fuel pump now has 160K on it, however the car started doing this at just 34K after purchased CPO.

Dealer couldn't duplicate and I started with basic things like battery, air filter, OEM plugs then I started replacing more and more when the mileage got up there because with the mileage I figured it couldn't hurt anyway.

I have a feeling the original owner had the same issue because I found an invoice from a prior dealer where the previous owner complained of a no start issue and that dealer replaced the immobilizer antenna.

Key is not broken but thought crossed my mind wondering if it was immobilizer related.

Tach behaves normal, I've watched it to make sure it isn't something related and I've done the cam and crank sensors anyway along with all of the other things I've replaced hoping I'd finally fix this issue.

Yeah, I'm starting to think maybe fuel pump because it started doing this twice a week a while back after I parked it and it sat for a few hours in the heat then started it again. Instead of starting it immediately like normal I started putting the key to position II for a few seconds first because the long cranking was embarrassing and it never did it. This did make me think fuel pump at one point but I thought maybe just coincidence or something.

Since the issue seemed to happen the most after sitting in the heat for a for a few hours I started to think it was a heatsoak issue related to the ECU but of course I had that replaced and it continued. Later I had the dealer replace the CEM after the locks started rapidly unlocking and locking on their own after starting.

It's just strange because it often starts immediately, idles good and it moves good when you floor it, doesn't act like there is anything wrong with it. Then sometimes it acts like it doesn't want to start.

I'm just concerned it's getting worse because the last time my wife started it she said it was running rough. Of course though dealer says it's not doing it for them and no codes.

[vtl]

Vapor lock? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor_lock