Wrong ATF killed transmission?

trtvolvo · Post by **trtvolvo** » 01 Sep 2007, 05:22

I recognize that there is a wealth of discussion on this topic, and I've read most/all, but am left with some degree of uncertainty.

I have a 2000 V70 XC AWD SE, 4-speed AT (AW 50-42LE).

Owner's manual and several postings says that Dexron/Mercon ATF is required for the 2000 4-speed.

(OM 2000 V70: Automatic Transmission Fluid: Quality: AW4: ATF Dexron III and Mercon. AW5: Only Volvo gearbox oil (1161540). Do not mix with other oils).

However, service bulletin 4-43-0029-01-05 says JWS 3309 ATF is required for 2000 V70s regardless of whether 4- or 5-speed.

(SB 4-43-0029-01-05: Affected vehicles: Model V70 AWD through 2000, Factory 2, Chassis no. 395000 and greater; mine matches this model/factory/chassis no.)

About a month ago, at 95K, I had the ATF flushed. Immediately, I noticed an MPG drop of about 4-5mpg (city to ~14 from ~18 and highway to ~19 from ~24). But, I could pinpoint as issue.

A couple days ago, at 97K, I got the flashing arrow and CEL. I also noticed bad behavior of the transmission. E.g., more power than usual in D (or R) at idle (i.e., normal RPMs, but take foot off brake from stop in D (or R) and car lunges with more power than usual - perhaps engine/transmission not sufficiently disengaged, lock-up; Also, automatic downshifting from 3-2-1 occurs at *very* low speed, e.g., 3-2 at ~10mph, with RPMs dropping to 600-700, and car "shudders" as if stopping a manual transmission in 2nd or 3rd gear without clutch; and, when stopped in N, shifting to D (or R) causes a big temporary RPM dip or 200-300 down from 1,000, or similarly, when stopped in D (or R), shifting to N causes big temporary RPM rise of 200-300 above 1,000 - both cases seemingly indicating engine/transmission not sufficiently disengaging when in gear/stopped, lockup).

Service shop that did the flush last month says the flush and new fluid did not cause the transmission failures, but merely uncovered a problem that was already there and hidden by the older sludgey ATF.

I'm inclined to think they screwed up something. If indeed this car requires 3309 and they used Dexron/Mercon, would the failures exhibited above result? Service advisor indicated that they used Dexron/Mercon, but he was guessing - still need to get them to confirm (or, is it sufficient to check ATF color; 3309=gold and Dexron/Mercon=red; only 2K miles since they flushed, but perhaps even that was enough to discolor each beyond differntiating?).

Even if they used the proper ATF (whether 3309 or Dexron/Mercon), would the flush be the most likely culprit (vs. a latent issue merely uncovered by the flush) of the transmission failures?

Their answer is transmission replacement for $4K - which might be the only alternative (but, I'm wondering how much of a leg I have to stand on to get them to pay for it).

Thanks in advance.

Post by **JRL** » 01 Sep 2007, 05:51

They are probably right which is why there are different opinions about flushing a higher mileage transmissions vs. just doing a drain and fill.
The 4 speed can use any fliud, heck I think it could work with karosene (just kidding) but Dex 4 OR 3309 is fine.
The bulletin you are referrring to says use 3309 if there is a hard shift problem but neither fluid caused your problem per se and they were probably right in saying it disloged some gunk and made it worse

Post by **pfeener** » 01 Sep 2007, 06:33

From what I've read 3309 ATF has a different friction coefficent than the Dextron III. There's no way of knowing just what they did or how they did it so I doubt you will get anywhere trying to pin it on them.

Can you tell us what it says on your service slip? How much did they charge you and how many quarts of oil did they use?

My guess is there was Dextron III in there to start with and they used 3309 when they did the flush. The price may tell us because the 3309 is more expensive than the Dextron.

If I were in your shoes right now, I would immediately flush again with Dextron III and see what happens. You can do this yourself fairly easily if you're so inclined. Read the repair section of this forum and you'll see several posts telling you how to do it.

stoutlogic · Post by **stoutlogic** » 01 Sep 2007, 07:15

This is why I never flush a transmission. Often when one gets talked into a trans flush he ends up replacing the trans within the following few months. IMO its better to do frequent changes rather then flushes. Sorry I know this doesn't help your case but for the future changes are generally safer then power flushes.

Post by **pfeener** » 01 Sep 2007, 07:45

Trtvolvo: Just some explanation in case you don't know the difference between a change (or drain) and a flush. A lot of folks do a drain every 10K or so when they change their engine oil. A drain is just removing the drain plug in the trannie which changes out about 4 quarts of the 12 quarts the trannie has in it. Doing this every 10K or so keeps the fluid fresh but doesn't do a complete flush of the system.

To get back to your problem:
Thinking about this some more; this is what I think is the most likely sequence of what happened to your car. (First I wouldn't frequent this shop any more and I certainly wouldn't let them change out the trannie if it comes to that. The fact that they don't know what fluid they used or didn't mark it on the receipt is a key indicator for me of shoddy work habits.) As I said before I think your car came into their shop with Dextron III in it. My guess is whoever changed it out looked at the chart to see what oil to use and missed the fact that your car is AWD with a 4 speed. A FWD V70 has a 5 speed trannie and takes 3309 fluid so I'll bet that's what they used.

Post by **JRL** » 01 Sep 2007, 09:21

pfeener wrote:From what I've read 3309 ATF has a different friction coefficent than the Dextron III. There's no way of knowing just what they did or how they did it so I doubt you will get anywhere trying to pin it on them.

.

You're not reading what I wrote.
There is a Volvo TNN that specifically says to use 3309 in a four speed for hard shifting problems.
It will NOT cause any problems.I flushed my 60K tranny and used 3309 in ny 850R and now at 72K miles it shifts better than ever.
It's good stuff but unless you buy it yourself (Mobil) very expensive.
I bought 6 cases at $40 a case, not bad
I will do a drain and fill with 3309 at 75K miles if I still have it
Whatever happened to his transmission was NOT caused by the fluid

Post by **pfeener** » 01 Sep 2007, 09:42

Thanks, JRL. I never knew that. I thought 3309 ATF in the 4 speed trannies was strictly a no-no.

Post by **MadeInJapan** » 01 Sep 2007, 11:28

Flashing arrow and CEL? I don't think anyone has responded to this issue. Just a side note, but check the PnP switch to make sure it's that and not really even the tranny/ tranny fluid. Also check the tranny fluid level- over-fill or under-fill will cause shifting issues. Also, I believe both fluids (dexron and 3309) are red- neither is a gold color.

F18 · Post by **F18** » 02 Sep 2007, 11:36

MadeInJapan wrote:Flashing arrow and CEL? I don't think anyone has responded to this issue. Just a side note, but check the PnP switch to make sure it's that and not really even the tranny/ tranny fluid. Also check the tranny fluid level- over-fill or under-fill will cause shifting issues. Also, I believe both fluids (dexron and 3309) are red- neither is a gold color.

I wondered about the CEL too! The first thing that needs to be done is a code scan. And I also believe 3309 is red like Dexron. Red AT fluid over time and with heat will turn gold or "urine yellow".......time to change it usually.
Cheers,
FRED

Post by **JRL** » 02 Sep 2007, 13:32

pfeener wrote:Thanks, JRL. I never knew that. I thought 3309 ATF in the 4 speed trannies was strictly a no-no.

Absolutely not, it IS a Volvo TNN "fix" for a slightly rough shifting 4 speed
Really, it won't hurt a thing but you have other things going on.
The flush itself may have hurt it, not the fluid.
1st thing is check the codes and maybe check the PNP switch but the probability of something nasty becoming dislodged is your best bet.
I never flush unless there is a problem, if the fluid is just dirty but the car is running OK, I just drain and fill with the same fluid that's in there.
ALL tranny fluids are red as far as I know