Herman and Operation 30MPG

[June]

I was hoping to get someone else to jump into he sinkhole of people talking about this stuff without having a clue of knowledge

It's a lot more fun than discussing vacuum cleaner vs broom. Oh wait I ride the latter! June

A vacuum cleaner is a turbo charged broom

The problem would be the short cord! June

[erikv11]

... Update: after running 93 octane, 89 octane and 87 octane there is no measurable mpg difference in my driving. ...

Don't forget to factor in the cost of a new engine, when it burns a hole in an exhaust valve after a couple years of running 87.

Just to make certain that I'm understanding your allegation correctly. Are you saying that bc 87 burns hotter than 93 it'll burn through the valves? That seems like a bit of a design flaw. Esp when they say 87 min octane.

I'm not trying to challenge you, but do you have any anecdotal evidence to back that up? I'd love to read about it. More info = more better.

Honestly I don't intend on driving this car longer than a year or two. It's already eating about 1 quart of oil per 1000 miles. I'm at 187,737 as of today. Not sure what point it'll need an overhaul but my last one died around 280,000 miles.

The anecdotal evidence abounds, is that all you request? Lol. The definitive kind is a bit more elusive of course. But burned valves are an achillies heel of these engines, read through the forum you find many, many instances. Many people will argue that running 87 is a root cause. Yes, in an NA engine.

The owners manual says 87 minimum, 91 recommended. 187k is (should be) adolescence for that engine. However that's unusually high oil consumption.

[June]

Don't forget to factor in the cost of a new engine, when it burns a hole in an exhaust valve after a couple years of running 87.

Just to make certain that I'm understanding your allegation correctly. Are you saying that bc 87 burns hotter than 93 it'll burn through the valves? That seems like a bit of a design flaw. Esp when they say 87 min octane.

I'm not trying to challenge you, but do you have any anecdotal evidence to back that up? I'd love to read about it. More info = more better.

Honestly I don't intend on driving this car longer than a year or two. It's already eating about 1 quart of oil per 1000 miles. I'm at 187,737 as of today. Not sure what point it'll need an overhaul but my last one died around 280,000 miles.

The anecdotal evidence abounds, is that all you request? Lol. The definitive kind is a bit more elusive of course. But burned valves are an achillies heel of these engines, read through the forum you find many, many instances. Many people will argue that running 87 is a root cause. Yes, in an NA engine.

The owners manual says 87 minimum, 91 recommended. 187k is (should be) adolescence for that engine. However that's unusually high oil consumption.

One other commonality on the burnt valve database is cars not running Volvo coolant. You should look at the burned valve database. June

[Rattnalle]

I've barely heard of burned valves this side the ocean..

[mrbrian200]

I've barely heard of burned valves this side the ocean..

Hey I'll take a stab at this. Call this an educated theory. I caught something about 'hoping to get someone else to jump in the sinkhole of people talking about this stuff without a clue of knowledge'. Oh don't say stuff like that. It triggers my imagination to run wild... As follows

From what I (think I) understand, fuel sold in most if not all of Europe is required to be formulated similar to that sold in US federal low emission zones (LEZ), which is basically about 48 of our larger cities/metropolitan areas and (probably) Cali.
The gas sold in LEZ zones is required include a certain mix of additives to lower emissions, some of them specifically target fuel system/injector 'cleanliness' because dirty/plugged injectors directly affect tailpipe emissions, as well as better control detonation and address 'clean burning' and catalyst efficiency.

Outside these LEZ areas, states generally test for octane rating only. Fuel quality and additives can vary widely, as the industry largely 'self regulates' in this area (outside LEZs).

I can attest first hand experience. When I buy gas in/around Chicago (a federal LEZ) I can buy gas anywhere -cheap off brand or top tier my Volvo likes it all pretty much equally. When I purchase fuel in the South Bend IN area, I learn which stations' gas the car seems to like, and which ones it definately doesn't (combination of any/all: less than stellar idle quality, noticably lower econ and throttle response not as 'punchy'). In Northern Indiana the only brand I've found to be consistent and good, like the stuff you get *everywhere* around Chicago, from various retail locations is Marathon premium.

I propose this is the reason we have more problems with burnt valves. In the states, in many areas we quite often get stuck with Poor quality fuel even if we intended to buy the good stuff. Bad fuel = plugged/dirty injectors = lean running cylinders = more likely to experience burnt valves. If a cylinder/valve is getting a little hotter than it should non Volvo coolant which may not perform quite as good becomes the icing on the cake. The coolant isn't the primary culprit: it's poor quality fuel.

[Rattnalle]

I've barely heard of burned valves this side the ocean..

Hey I'll take a stab at this. Call this an educated theory. I caught something about 'hoping to get someone else to jump in the sinkhole of people talking about this stuff without a clue of knowledge'. Oh don't say stuff like that. It triggers my imagination to run wild... As follows

From what I (think I) understand, fuel sold in most if not all of Europe is required to be formulated similar to that sold in US federal low emission zones (LEZ), which is basically about 48 of our larger cities/metropolitan areas and (probably) Cali.
The gas sold in LEZ zones is required include a certain mix of additives to lower emissions, some of them specifically target fuel system/injector 'cleanliness' because dirty/plugged injectors directly affect tailpipe emissions, as well as better control detonation and address 'clean burning' and catalyst efficiency.

Outside these LEZ areas, states generally test for octane rating only. Fuel quality and additives can vary widely, as the industry largely 'self regulates' in this area (outside LEZs).

I can attest first hand experience. When I buy gas in/around Chicago (a federal LEZ) I can buy gas anywhere -cheap off brand or top tier my Volvo likes it all pretty much equally. When I purchase fuel in the South Bend IN area, I learn which stations' gas the car seems to like, and which ones it definately doesn't (combination of any/all: less than stellar idle quality, noticably lower econ and throttle response not as 'punchy'). In Northern Indiana the only brand I've found to be consistent and good, like the stuff you get *everywhere* around Chicago, from various retail locations is Marathon premium.

I propose this is the reason we have more problems with burnt valves. In the states, in many areas we quite often get stuck with Poor quality fuel even if we intended to buy the good stuff. Bad fuel = plugged/dirty injectors = lean running cylinders = more likely to experience burnt valves. If a cylinder/valve is getting a little hotter than it should non Volvo coolant which may not perform quite as good becomes the icing on the cake. The coolant isn't the primary culprit: it's poor quality fuel.

You could be on to something. I don't know how they compare but I do know we have strict rules for all fuels in the EU. Not just octane but everything that's in it. Sweden has had similar rules of its own for even longer. Diesel is easier to exemplify with very strict rules for how much sulphur it may contain, pretty much none. Over here I've never manage to notice any difference between petrol from different places. Doesn't matter if it's a small run down place in the Swedish country side or a new well frequented place in the city (Sweden only has two refineries anyway AFAIK). Can't tell a difference between Italian countryside petrol or petrol from next to the Autobahn outside Berlin either.

Going on from there though it would be logical to think that the octane rating itself isn't really what's important but the other stuff. But that the other stuff is much worse for low grade petrol than for premium.

[FLXC90]

To "stem" your oil consumption, run some ATP AT-205 through it to flex up your valve seals, along with a seafoam of the intake, you'll clean deposits, and the backs of the valves.

And use synthetic gear oil in your fancy shmancy stick shift car.

[callahanoffroad]

So unusually high oil consumption. Which is exactly what I was thinking.

So what's the procedure here? Leakdown and compression test?

I could grab a donor engine, rebuild that and swap it in once I get a garage again. Which would be around the summer.

I could also just say some curse words at it, save up cash and buy a turbo p80. Or a p2. I've always wanted a 98 p80 turbo with a manual transmission.

I guess I should have mentioned at some point that I did go to automotive technical school, although it was many many moons ago. Hahaha.

Just so we're all on the same page, Herman is in fact a beater. So I'm not surprised that he's needing more work. Esp seals. He is 23 years old after all. And he was only $1200. I still think I over paid. Even though I've spent about $4000 getting him back on track if I sold or totalled him I may get $1200 at best. People don't value old cars where I live. Also that $4000 is with me doing 90% of the work myself. So ouch. Hahaha.

Attached is a picture of my first Volvo.

I find that threads are much more compelling when there is a personal story attached.

My first Volvo was a 96 850 wagon. Non turbo. I bought it with about 150k miles on the clock. I loved that car. I drove it across the country several times and it was great to drive, minus the back hatch that liked to clunk over bumps!

I bought her when I was my mom's caregiver during cancer treatments. And for a long time driving that car was my only refuge from the stress of being a caregiver. Because it was my first Volvo I honestly knew nothing about Volvo quirks. And I spent many nights watching RSPI's videos, and reading maintenance threads on this forum.

I remember once, the fuel pump went out and I was stuck under a foot of snow (I lived in Colorado at the time.) I spent about 4 hours in the snow trying to diagnose the issue. Somehow I never thought "fuel pump." So to the repair shop it went.

I owned that car for 3 years and 130k miles.

I actually bought my current car as the backup to my wagon. It was only supposed to be a backup. Well life has a funny way of throwing things at you and two weeks later the head on Luna finally gave way and having no garage and no money at the time she got sent to heaven. But she did donate a lot of parts to Herman first. The dash pad, speakers, some suspension parts, and more.

I think I don't have the same attachment to Herman that I did to Luna. Probably because we haven't been through the hard times together. Maybe because I only use him for work really. I don't know. I think there's a part of me that subconsciously knows that he's a money pit and that I don't want to keep throwing money at it.

I actually only deliver pizzas for rent money, I'm actually a chef by trade. And I write cookbooks! I'm hoping thatll take off soon here as business is starting to pickup again.

Anyways I have to run to work now, those pizzas don't deliver themselves... And if they did I'd be out of a job!

[erikv11]

... You should look at the burned valve database. June

I was the first person to post/respond data in that thread. I'm well aware of its content, hence my summary up above.

For others curious about the info and discussion: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=74239l

[matthew1]

I guess I should have mentioned at some point that I did go to automotive technical school, although it was many many moons ago. Hahaha.

Just so we're all on the same page, Herman is in fact a beater. So I'm not surprised that he's needing more work. Esp seals. He is 23 years old after all. And he was only $1200. I still think I over paid. Even though I've spent about $4000 getting him back on track if I sold or totalled him I may get $1200 at best. People don't value old cars where I live. Also that $4000 is with me doing 90% of the work myself. So ouch. Hahaha.

Attached is a picture of my first Volvo.

I find that threads are much more compelling when there is a personal story attached.

My first Volvo was a 96 850 wagon. Non turbo. I bought it with about 150k miles on the clock. I loved that car. I drove it across the country several times and it was great to drive, minus the back hatch that liked to clunk over bumps!

I bought her when I was my mom's caregiver during cancer treatments. And for a long time driving that car was my only refuge from the stress of being a caregiver. Because it was my first Volvo I honestly knew nothing about Volvo quirks. And I spent many nights watching RSPI's videos, and reading maintenance threads on this forum.

Thanks for posting this. It does really put a human behind the username! I wish you all the success. When your book is out, I'd be happy to help promote it here and on MVS Facebook.