Los Angeles - running 1993 850 going to the dismantler?

[Rattnalle]

Why would the state of California bother with emissions created when producing a new car? The emissions and pollution will be somewhere else, probably in Asia, and those emissions won't be included in the calculations of CA transportation emissions anyway. Wear and tear in the name of the environment!

There's tailpipe emissions standard improvements as well.

But in general a lot of these schemes to pay for getting older cars off the road have more to do with creating business for car manufacturers. It'd be better to create proper incentives to own and drive efficient cars. Getting the thirsty ones off the road and making it less attractive to buy new ones rather than more efficient new cars.

Tailpipe emissions (NOX) are probably lower from my 1997 850 compared to a modern VW diesel.
According to this article the manufacturing of a Ford Mondeo generates
17 000 kg co2.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... nt-new-car

The "mpg" of my 850 is approximately 1 liter per 10 km (23.5 mpg). Buying a new car that consumes 30% less I would need to drive
240 000 km (150 K miles) to compensate for the emissions from manufacturing the new car.
1 l petrol is 2.32kg co2.
17000/2.32=7327 liter. The emissions from manufacturing is the equivalent of 7327,59 liter petrol burnt. 7327.59/0.3= 24 4250 km.

Environmentally I think I'd better stick to my car until it's scrap, then buying a electric car.

Besides Ratnalle, using the term "socialism" writing to Americans might be misunderstood. "Socialism" in an American context can almost be translated to "stalinism" in swedish.

The new car probably won't consume 30% less in real world use either. So I agree with you. What we'd need is rather to keep people from buying new cars with poor fuel economy. A newer petrol car will probably be cleaner but likely not a newer diesel.

Regarding socialism. It was sort of a jab because I know the word has a completely different popular meaning in the US. But at least in my European English vocabulary there isn't really another word for it.

[Clemens]

Environmentally I think I'd better stick to my car until it's scrap, then buying a electric car.

Now where´s the environmental benefit of going electric? Millions of batteries that require rare earth material which requires billions of liters of water to get out of desert soil, leaving farmers without water, speeding up the greenhouse effect by all that water that evaporates in order to leave the rare earth material, only being CO2 friendly if you believe that elictricity comes out of your wall socket w/o creating emissions. THe term Zero Emissions Vehicle is just as much of a fraud as the VW diesel saga.

[Rattnalle]

It's not like fracking or tar sand has any environmental issues or anything. Not saying batteries are perfect either but everything has a downside. Long term potential seems better for electricity though.

[LOB]

Environmentally I think I'd better stick to my car until it's scrap, then buying a electric car.

Now where´s the environmental benefit of going electric? Millions of batteries that require rare earth material which requires billions of liters of water to get out of desert soil, leaving farmers without water, speeding up the greenhouse effect by all that water that evaporates in order to leave the rare earth material, only being CO2 friendly if you believe that elictricity comes out of your wall socket w/o creating emissions. THe term Zero Emissions Vehicle is just as much of a fraud as the VW diesel saga.

Yes there's some issues with batteries but in the future they will be recycled. In Scandinavia almost all electricity is co2 neutral (hydroelectric or nuclear). I believe nuclear power plants is the future!

[abscate]

Sociaism is a hated word here, especially in 36 of our states which are socialist states, funded by the Federal Government. Those are the guys who think they are capitalists, too. Oh well. The first target of the Anti-Vax group was the idiot vaccine, unfortunately.

We sure can't continue on the path we are on. Solar cell lifetime is better than was first projected, so the energy of construction has finally been exceeded by the energy generated by about 2x now. Mining of materials for batteries will be initially both non-green and expensive, but you have to work really hard to destroy elements, so the will be recovered and re-used.

It is kind of a cool program to get you out of a non CARB compliant car without throwing money looking for hard to find parts, and getting you enough to get into something that can be smogged.

It's not like fracking or tar sand has any environmental issues or anything.

We banned it in our state. Now that towns are finding their water catches fire, and that OK is the earthquake capital of the US - more will follow.

[j-dawg]

as lob pointed out; mining, paint dry ing and plastics being formed and transport from Asia negate all emissions benefits.

I'm pretty particular about refuting this when I hear it: there are environmental costs to building, transporting, and scrapping a car, but the vast majority of a car's environmental impact over its lifetime comes from its tailpipe emissions. This remains true for gasoline-electric hybrids.

If you drive more than a few thousand miles a year, the planet is better off if you scrap your old car and buy a more efficient one. I'm not necessarily advocating that anyone do this, but there are countless cradle-to-grave energy and pollution studies out there that can corroborate. If you prioritize environmental health over your pocketbook and driving cars you like, then you should buy a newer car than an 850.

It's okay to not want that. I own two older cars myself, and I drive them on the order of a combined 10,000 miles a year. I recognize the value of clean living, but cars are important to me, so I am knowingly exceeding my "quota" and imposing a cost on the rest of the planet. It's important for me to be explicit with myself about that.

I have argued about this on MVS before and don't want to get back into it, but I don't want to let the statement go unrefuted. At the very least, let the record show that there is contention surrounding the point.

Regarding electrics, an EV converts its stored energy to kinetic energy at about three times the efficiency of a gasoline internal combustion engine, and it benefits from regenerative braking, where a conventional car does not. Of course that wall power may have come from an unclean source, and there are efficiency losses in power lines and conversions, but so are there costs to transporting gasoline. On the whole an electric car makes much less environmental impact per mile traveled than does a gasoline car. Yes, there are costs to manufacturing and disposing of batteries, and the long-term impact is not yet clear. Let's not forget the tremendous impacts of gasoline cars (smog, carbon emissions, gas stations everywhere, oil dependence, manufacturing and maintenance, the list goes on). I'd roll the dice on batteries to cut those other huge problems by two-thirds.

[abscate]

The studies I think that are done well show the sunk energy cost and the use cost are comparable, so which is greener is arguablely based on usage patterns. Buying a used p, more efficient car is clearly greener, of course.

Tailpipe wise Are cars are almost as good as anything else getting 25 mpg, but I agree we should be honest and say we drive them because we like them , first.

[j-dawg]

Tailpipe wise Are cars are almost as good as anything else getting 25 mpg, but I agree we should be honest and say we drive them because we like them , first.

From a CO2 emissions-per-mile standpoint I agree, but other tailpipe emissions are pretty strictly regulated in the USA and they've gotten progressively tighter over the last 20 years. Too, the most appropriate modern comparison for an 850 is a compact sedan (Corolla / Civic class), and those will do much better than 25 mpg these days.

[RickHaleParker]

Those are the guys who think they are capitalists, too. Oh well.

They think they are temporarily embarrassed millionaires.
Everything will be as it should be when the promised trickle down arrives.

[abscate]

Those are the guys who think they are capitalists, too. Oh well.

They think they are temporarily embarrassed millionaires.
Everything will be as it should be when the promised trickle down arrives.

One thanksgiving I listened to four guys argue passionately for the new estate tax , washing windows, cut lawns , and detailing cars, forget the other one. I was the only one who benefitted and was on the “wrong side

temporarily embarrassed millionaires.

If I sign a EULA can I get user rights to this one please?