1995 Volvo 960 sedan 233xxxkm No Crank/No start Topic is solved

[sergitin32]

Hi, Ladies and gentlemen in this forum, long time no see, I guess my 240 has been a great car for a while now.
So good that I trust her enough to pass her down to my oldest daughter as her first car. Part of that process was to look a new Volvo for me.
So I found myself this no-starter of a 1995 Volvo 960, researching specs and reviews, and I saw these 960s are also great vehicles capable of reaching long lives, so I said, why not? The price was great, and I even managed to haggle it a little bit lower after a while trying to diagnose the issue without any results.

The car: 1995 Volvo 960, 2.9L in-line 6-cylinder 24-valve engine, Automatic 4-speed transmission with little over 233000 km.

The issue: There is a fresh (one-week-old) battery in the car with 730 CC with over 12.4V in it ( I also tried jumping it with my car and still zero improvement.

The codes at OBD1 blinking came back as 1-1-1, indicating no fault codes were stored in the (I believe) Motronic 1.8 system.
Racked the transmission lever many times to see if the PNP switch was to blame, then again, nothing changed.
The lights are bright, and they dim a little when I try cranking, but nothing else happens.

Went to the relay's location under the hood and located the Starter Relay in position K. Tested the relay with the battery voltage, and it works when applying 12v to the silver legs. The brass-like legs offer continuity, so the relay is good. Then tested the relay socket and thre's a 12V signal when the ignition switch is turned to the cranking position. At this point, I have done almost everything except test the STARTER it self because its crammed in there, and this was sort of a quick check in order to make my mind if buying the car or not.

Following all of this, is there anything I could have done except test the starter? Do these point to a bad starter motor and/or solenoid?
Anyone here has a good tutorial or video online on how to go at it in order to remove or change the starter motor in this car?
Are starter motors refurbishable?

The car came stock fully loaded with many amenities and even the rearview mirror servos were working perfectly, it also came with the original manuals and tool set, and many receipts of recent and ancient work done at it, apparently it had very good care during its active life, until its owner pass away and it sat unused for about 8 years (

The engine rotates fine by hand, so there is no engine issue presumably and the engine oil color looks very fresh.

One more thing I found problematic is that there were, at some point, critters living in there. Part of the hood soundproof cover has been used for nesting behind the headlights, so I guess I will need to check for chewed wiring along the starting circuit.
Then the rocker panels are rusty and need body work for sure.

Other than that, the interior was mint and everything seemed to be in order so I do believe it is a great buy once I address these couple of issues.

Thanks for any advice coming from you guys here.

Sergitin32

[Vova585]

Quick and dirty way- take a piece of metal and try to shock the started a little. Idea is to vibrate it a little so it can get "unstuck" and turn the engine over. Some people use light taps with the hammer, long breaker bar... If after that "love tap" still nothing. Best option is to go to the starter and check the basics. Please note that it possibly can have starter service port as per diagram which can make testing easier.
I would take a good 12v bulb which 1-2 amp and make yourslef a test light(substitute load test, alwats test your test equipment before each use). Disconnect terminal 50(small wire from ignition switch to the back of solenoid) and connect one leg of your test light to the terminal wire 50 and another to the ground of the car(best body of the starter) and ask someone to turn key to iii position(start). No light- replace contact from starter body with wire from negative terminal of battery. Light on-bad ground. No light-check integrity of the wire 50 from the starter connection to starter relay(remove relay. Supply voltage from battery positive cable through a 5amp fuse to the starter relay leg going to the starter). No light- mice likely ate a piece so look for broken wire. Light on-great. You know that integrity is good from starter relay to starter. Keep looking upstream what is wrong in this care(relay, wires...). Can take starter out and test in advance or zone for free. Hope helps. Sorry short on time now



https://volvotips.com/service-manual/vo ... anual.html

[sergitin32]

Thanks, Vova585, for your speedy answer. I'll try all those techniques once I get to the job.

I found a couple useful videos and a tiutorial on how to replace the starter, here are the links:

https://turbobricks.com/index.php?threa ... /#:~:text=

[Vova585]

You found Paul from SD.. you are all set. Highly recommend his book if you have enough free time and car diagnostic and repair is of interest.

[sergitin32]

Thanks again for the answer... I looked into his book, and I might purchase it when I have the budget for it.
I will perform your procedure tomorrow if I have the time and necessary tools.
I might need to purchase a long-reach skinny plier to reach the #50 contact to the solenoid; so far, I cannot get it out.
I did a lot of digging around today and found myself a few clues of factual animal inhabiting the car while it was parked, see the pics:



As you can see there are some chewed wires on my driver's side headlights, my airbox was fully nested under the air filter (which was pretty roded too) also the hood lid insulation is missing materials in several patches, the windshield wiper fluid cap is missing a lot of material from chewing bites, etc... so yes critters were living here, meaning a bad wire is a high probability at this point.

As I moved around, trying several things and really making an attempt to reach the alternator several ways I found one weird surprise and a couple of things that do not make sense with the wiring diagrams I have been seen here and online in general.

It seems to me a lot of the info online is from 1994 vehicles, and for what I can appreciate, 1995s are quite different, at least on the starter circuitry; not sure what else might not be similar, but this is certainly not the same.

My car has, clearly, a starter motor relay and a starter motor solenoid 50A fuse, check these pictures of the Engine bay Relay box, Engine Bay Fuse Box, and Cabin Fuse box.

The Cabin Fuse box fuses 2 and 11 both say central lock(ing) and number 2 also says alarm:

Weirdly enough, as well, fuse number 21 in this box mentions Shift Lock. I was under the impresion after a little reading these 95's units do not have the shift lock switch but only the PNP switch by the transmission?

The fuse box on front passenger corner in the engine bay has a big fuse (50A) that reads Starter Solenoid in position 6 (shared with horn etc):


The main Relay Box in the engine bay, as well, but on the driver's side, has the relay for the Starter motor itself in position K:


I think I might be going to the dealer to see if they would be able to help me out with schematics for this vehicle... Since the ones online obviously are not correct.

I was also looking for a service plug for the starter and did not find any. If someone knows where I can find such, please let me know.

Then, for the weird surprise, I found this label on the radiator bracket area:


After seeing that, I went looking for a switch under the dashboard and found this thing. No idea what it does, but I tried starting the car in both positions just in case. Does anyone have a clue about this weird switch on the driver's side foot well just beside the floor light lamp???
.

One more question I got the car keys with a fob, and here is a fuse saying alarm, but so far the fob (good 1.5V battery inside) does not do anything like locking or unlocking the doors... So I am not 100% sure if the alarm is there or not, since an immobilizer would be doing the same thing to the car as what is happening, then I thought to ask here how to make sure there is (or is not) an immobilizer in this car. Did any of them come stock with it as an option, or would it be an aftermarket addition, and the fuse is there to run the thing through it?

[volvolugnut]

The photos and label look to me to be an after market remote start device. It may still be connected but failed and preventing start. Have you looked at wires behind the toggle switch? I would try to trace and disconnect any wires coming from this switch.
A quick search for Command Start Remote starter showed online manuals are available for the device.
volvolugnut

[sergitin32]

Thanks, Volvolugnut, for your response.

So I discovered some stuff today, but not full on since I am still recovering from surgery and sore.

OK, first the good news: THE STARTER MOTOR WORKS FINE!!!. I went underneath without lifting the car just to bridge the contacts from #50 to 12V+, since from the top of the engine bay it was almost impossible for me... Gave it a connect and it started and idled fine for a while (I turned it off since the accessories belt is off the car and I didn't want to spend the battery) great news to me since I bought the car with no clear knowledge of the engine's real-life conditions...

So that puts my attention on the electronics before the starter; something is wrong there, I will jack it up tomorrow and use my test lights for continuity and such just to determine if the wire itself is bad or there is something else acting up.

Two more things I found are these two:

The small toggle switch under the dash has a pink cable that goes to the ECU unit and a red wire going to the Command Start Unit (CS300I) shown in the following picture. It's hard to get any good pictures down there without a special camera.



As you can see, this unit receives a lot of wires coming from everywhere... So I am not sure if unhooking it is the answer, but I'll try that tomorrow. Weird enough, the fob I have with the car keys does not have a start button.

Next thing I found was the keyless lock unit, just ziptied over the steering column, many cables up there are joined and electric tape covering them... so not sure what it really looks like there. Here are 3 pictures of the unit and the FOB numbers.





So, I am not sure if this unit also carries an immobilizer with it, I just know the FOB I have has one digit different from the number in the main keyless lock unit:
The FCC ID: CWTTFWB1G matches in both devices.
The main unit reads: Volvo P/N 9148645, and in the key fob reads: 9148646, so they are one digit higher.


Reading a thread on this site where they explained that these two numbers are correct with last digit off by one for the system to work. So I looked for the programming argorythm for these FOB, went out there and VOILA: the keyless entry works, and if the car is locked by fob and I try to start it the alarm sounds, so there is an alarm there too. My question now is , is there an immobilizer that is getting in the way for the starter mechanism to work? I tried to start it after the FOB worked and the results are still the same... So maybe looking more into the remote start unit...

Every time I move the key to the start position, a few things dim out as they should by the inhibiting circuit for the high consumers so all the power goes to the starter motor, so I am about to think the issues must be somewhere in these two systems, or there is a wire chewed-by-mouse.

Anyway, little by little, we are getting there. If possible I would love to have all these systems working so I can start the car from the house in the wintertime as well as open and close keyless... but first I need to solve this in order to progress to that.

Thanks for reading and for any advice given.

Sergio.

[volvolugnut]

Well done! Keep working on it - it has potential now that is runs.
volvolugnut

[sergitin32]

Well... kept reading past my bedtime and found some schematics for the starting system in these 1995s cars. here is a pic of the circuit after the ignition switch:



After looking at it, I can see for the automatic transmission path on the diagram - the one with the ***) sign- there are two devices:
3/40 = Start Inhibition Switch (PNP Switch on the transmission/shifter/linkage area)
2/35 = Starter Relay.

When I purchased the car, I recall checking the starter relay (position K in the relay/fuse box in the engine bay), and it checked as good. Since the only thing in the way of the signal to the solenoid after the relay is that (VERY INFAMOUS) PNP switch, I believe that is the culprit in my case. I will check tomorrow (later today) on that line and report back.

Here is an exploded diagram for the switch location (Number 32 in the diagram):



So far, I still have questions about the remote start system and how it plays along with the rest of this. Additionally, I notice that there is a fuse for the starter solenoid in the passenger-side engine bay fuse box, but I couldn't find it in this diagram.

In any case, I'll check the 12V+ signal from the relay outward and see where it dies, most likely the PNP switch, then I'll see what the problem is and what to do from there on.

Thanks again

Sergio.

[sergitin32]

OK, guys and girls, I did some digging today, and I can say with confidence this issue is kicking my @ss hard.

Went to the relay box and did some basic testing... a lot of it made zero sense. The only thing that makes sense overall at this point is that somewhere in the harness, there must be a chewed spot, and a few cables are just having a tea party, like a very chill, zero-hardcore gathering. On the other hand, I could also assume I, with humility, that something is going on and I have no explanation for it.

Here is the thing: most of the findings were not repeatable; they happened and then they didn't, but I did manage to have some of them happen for longer than others.

Have in mind many of these meassurements I did with several diferent relays with very similar results.

For example, it happenned constantly that i meassured continuity at the socket where leg 30 and 87 would be but with the relay off and its open, then go to the relay (in my hand out of the socket) and meassure continuity btwn leg 30 and 87 and it is still open then I meassure continuity with the relay plugged into the socket (not energized, not even a key in the ignition switch) and there is continuity between those two points... Then i got to measure continuity btwn the 30 and other legs in the relay and I find continuity btwn 30 and 85 which is the ground point for the switch circuit... then check continuity betwen 85 and ground and sure there is, but when search continuity btwn 30 and ground there is none...

So my intuition says there is a certain degree of continuity close enough to the relay socket that it trips the beep in the DMM but the contact is not good enough to make the DMM beep all the way to the ground point I was trying... too much resistance/less contact than needed.

Things I did not manage to replicate later on, but did replicate many times in the first couple of hours in there,
There is continuity (as it should) btwn relay leg 87 and the conector A3/D:1 (thats the big @ss connector in the same relay bot its section D(low left) pin 1 very low left corner pin). Now there are two diferent readings one with that bit @ss plug in there and backprobing the conector into pin1 with the key on ignition position 1 (on but not cranking) with the relay off there is no voltage there altho sometimes i read some like 300mV (relay off, ignition POS1), once u plug the relay in there is 11.30V in that spot and of course as well in pin 87 for the relay socket. This condition happened many times but later on it stopped happening... i am sure i replicated the conditions many times but g-d knows if i miss a step at some point in this madness...

AT the end of the day I kinda felt so disregulated and anxious I stopped the work and came here towrite, hopping some one can give me some senseful explnation to where in the whole circuitry could be the issue... I believe there should be a break in the harness some where and Ill try to trace it, tomorrow.

I did learn two things today, one not very good: you have to check your relay always positive into leg 86 and ground in 85...THE OTHER WAY ARROUND YOU BURN THE DIODE INSIDE THE RELAY!!! I FOUND OUT TODAY... I SIMPLY REMOVED THE DIODE AND PUT IT IN THE HORN POSITION, BUT THAT WAS LEARNED.

I also learn this morning where the various continuity check points are in the harness for the starter system... One is that A#/D:1 pin gets the blue/pink wire from leg 87 at starter relay and still blue/pink to conector B5 pin 4 ( this conector is located driver side of the transmission the mid one from three in a row, see picture) From there it goes to the PNP switch and comes back blue to Pin3 on the same conector B5 and from there again in Blue it goes to the connection 50 at the starter motor... so for continuity you need to meassure from A3/D:1 to B5:4 then if the Tranny is in parking and the PNP is good from pin4 to pin3 at B5 there should also be continuity (back probing the connector assembled or on the tranny side if conector separated) then from B5:3 there should be continuity to 50 at the starter motor solenoid.

In any case very likely all of the random continuity I have been finding at the Relay panel I believe should not be there... Ill have to make a more thural study and make my mind as to what wire harness the ones with alien continuity goes to and follow that harness for any defects (chewing, etc etc) I believe the 96 cars do not suffer from the old early 80's harness degradation so there should be something detectable at some point... AT LEAST I HOPE!

HERE SOME PICTURES FOMR THE ELECTRICAL DIAGRAMS MANUAL:


looking at this picture pin 1 at A3D is actually lowest right, but loking from the drivers fender its lowest left pin in the whole connector






THANKS
Sergio