850 (non-turbo) 1997 - Making It Faster

[tjts1]

No worries.

But i think people underestimate the how incredibly restricted the stock NA intake is. I stand by the hypothesys that an NA 5 speed 850 can do a 15.5. I'm really tired of people saying there's nothing you can do to an NA 850, its a waste of time, get a turbo, yada yada.

[chuckcintron]

I apologize, but this one got me sitting closer to the edge of my chair.

Unless you are also going to replace the TB, flow the head, go to a larger exhaust, larger injectors and dial in a custom tune -- there is NO WAY tweaking the intake on these cars is going to get you any more than a couple of HP. If you did everything I just said you might get 15HP out of it on a good day, if you can get it to run lean enough.

That stuff you are talking about is voodoo. Put the car on a flow bench, and a dyno -- then tell me what your before/after results are.

An NA is 168HP compared to >220HP for a turbo. Don't even get me started on torque...that's a whole other discussion. Even IPD, who LOVES to make money off this stuff doesn't offer anything material in 'upgrades' for an NA vehicle.

If the OP got a hand-me-down of a nice car, then he got a gift that I would immediately begin shopping around to sell and reinvest in a Volvo with forced induction.

-Chuck

P.S. I don't want to get into a discussion about fluid dynamics here, but that snorkel conversion simply trades velocity for volume. The system is not maxed out at it's current config...you'll net exactly the same CFM throughput.

[tjts1]

When the NA 5 speed 850 runs a 15.5 you'll be first to hear about it. I'm sorry to disappoint you but in its stock configuration the automatic 850 turbo has a hard enough time putting all that noise and fury down to the ground. Its part of the reason why I chose NA/5 speed over turbo/autotragic. Its not like there is any price difference on the used car market. If anything, 5 speed cars fetch a slight premium because its hard to find. There is also the matter of the 170 lb turbo weight penalty but I won't bore you with details. An NA 5 speed 850 wagon with a slightly modified intake will keep up with a stock automatic 850 turbo wagon in the 1/4.

[chuckcintron]

There is also the matter of the 170 lb turbo weight penalty but I won't bore you with details.

Huh? Cite your reference, please. Same car, turbo vs. not is more like 45 pounds worth of hardware. Well worth the extra 50+ HP and torque you'll get.

Let me remind you of your first shot across the bow here, before you went down the 1/4 mile path (then onto wheelspin, then onto resale value...)

What a bunch of useless rubbish. Yes, there's plenty you can do to your NA 850 to improve both power and efficiency at little or no cost.

And this gem:

A naturally aspirated 850 5 speed with minimal intake modifications can be as quick as a stock automatic 850 turbo with much better fuel economy and probably more reliable in the long term.

Almost everything you wrote in this thread is dead wrong. I'm sorry but let's call it like it is.

-Chuck

[tjts1]

Chuck, stop while you're ahead. You're making a fool of yourself.

Huh? Cite your reference, please. Same car, turbo vs. not is more like 45 pounds worth of hardware. Well worth the extra 50+ HP and torque you'll get.

Have you ever seen an 850 turbo without a sunroof in the US? Do you know the weight difference between a M56 vs a AW50-42? How about ECC vs manual climate control? Power seats vs manual? Leather vs cloth interior? In a perfect world, we would all be able to buy any engine/transmission/option combination we want. But in the US market, every 850 turbo to hit our shores was loaded.

Curb weight USA Canada
850 wagon 3230-3460 lbs (1465-1569 kg) 1465-1570 kg
http://new.volvocars.com/ownersdocs/199 ... .htm#pg9.7
Which one do you think is the turbo and which is NA?

Almost everything you wrote in this thread is dead wrong. I'm sorry but let's call it like it is.

-Chuck

I stand by my hypothesis. A brand new US spec 850R wagon ran a 15.5 second 1/4 mile in the video I posted previously. I assume an 850 turbo automatic wouldn't be far behind. An NA 5 speed 850 wagon will run will an identical 15.5 second 1/4 mile with a lightly modified intake as previously outlined in this thread. The 850 turbo and 850R sold in the US were never real performance models in stock form. They simply made life bearable with an automatic transmission and a boat load of luxury goodies. The real performance models were the european market turbos and T5Rs with manual transmission, limited slip differential, no sunroof, no leather, manual windows even no AC from the factory. The NA US models were designed to be painfully slow so people would upgrade into the Turbo and later GLT. Why do you think Volvo only installed the throttle plate plastic wedge on the US bound NA models but not europe?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VOLVO-850-2-0-2-5 ... 240%3A1318
For someone prepared to say that I am dead wrong, I would expect you to be more knowledgeable. So far all you've been able to do is bash the information I provided without adding any useful information of your own. You can continue down this track but I don't think you'll convince anyone.

cheers
Justin

[Japedo]

Chuck may have been the one posting. BUt im gonna go ou on a limb here and say that 99% of the ppl that read this thread agree with him.

let's do some math, the turbo models have atleast 50hp more than 168. some models have alot more than 50. That is a aprox a 30% power increase. Now, a n/a would have to be 30% lighter to achieve the same powe to weight ratio. So what's 30% of a 850? Around 420 kg or 943 lb. I just don't think it would be practicall.

japedo
94 850 turbo
01 V70 XC

[chuckcintron]

Sigh. Yes, I know all about the damper on one side of the NA throttle plate. Sure, you remove it and you get a bit better throttle response for the first few degrees of rotation. At WOT (which is where you'll be most of the time in your 15.5 run) it doesn't make a smack of difference.

Why did Volvo put the plastic wedge on your NA TB plate? So the soccer moms wouldn't spin their tires pulling out of Wal-Mart on a rainy day. You want me to dig up the phone number of the engineer from Sweden I talked to several years ago about this?

You want the same effect as your magic plastic plate mod? Change the cable guide at the throttle from a round disc to a cam. You'll tip the throttle open at a faster rate for the first few mm of cable travel -- whoo-ha! My car FEELS faster now!

File these kinds of mods in the fart can exhaust category.

Justin, I'm glad you like to experiment with your car -- that's good stuff. But to come here and tell us that removing your plastic wedge from your throttle plate and installing (gasp) corrugated laundry room pipe in front of your air cleaner is going to get the OP's gift-given NA 850 on par with a similar turbo vehicle is just silly. Do you know anything about fluid/airflow dynamics? Do you realize that putting corrugated ANYTHING in your intake path is doing nothing more than RESTRICTING your net throughput? Why do you think guys remove their heads and polish the combustion dome and intake/exhaust paths? Friction is your enemy.

And YOU are the guy who said "turbo penalty is 170 pounds". Not me. You want the facts? The turbo and associated hardware weighs 45 pounds. How do I know? I WEIGHED THE STUFF. You want to talk about sunroofs, third row seats, air conditioning..ok, let's talk about that. But not as a comparison of turbo versus NA.

My advice to the OP: Sell the NA and get a turbo.

Your advice: Remove the sunroof, remove the air conditioning, remove the third row seat, remove every bit of option that adds weight. Then stick a $2 piece of plastic tubing in front of your airbox and remove the plastic wedge from your throttle plate. Oh, and convert the car from an automatic to a 5-speed.

OK, I give. If he takes your advice he'll have the car he always wanted.

You're right...I'm looking like a fool here. I'm arguing with a guy who is using a $1.99 application on his cell phone to measure quarter mile times.

I'm done with this conversation, my friend.

-Chuck

[findude]

I have an 850 na manual. I've driven a bunch of 850s over the years, both na and turbo. It' unlikely you'll get an na 850 to perform the way the factory US-spec turbo does.

But the argument misses the point entirely. The 850 na with a manual transmission is a really good car. It's fun to drive, gets decent mileage, and when you rev it into the deep part of its torque band it's got enough ooomph. Naturally, most folks don't wind their 850 manuals up to 4500-6000 rpms, but there's a fair amount of power there.

[MadeInJapan]

But the argument misses the point entirely. The 850 na with a manual transmission is a really good car. It's fun to drive, gets decent mileage, and when you rev it into the deep part of its torque band it's got enough ooomph. Naturally, most folks don't wind their 850 manuals up to 4500-6000 rpms, but there's a fair amount of power there.

I'd agree with you on this...Also, because of the turbo lag on stock 850's w/ turbo (automatic) the 5 speed 850 w/o turbo is a faster off the line, but within a a second (when the turbo kicks in) the 850 w/ turbo begins to really pick up speed and within 2-3 seconds the non-turbo is beaten hands down!

To the original poster- there are some N/A lovers out there and they drive their cars to the max and enjoy the hell out of them. I know a guy that drives the "Dragon" (do a search on Google) that runs between TN and NC and he loves his car. With the tight turns, etc. on the Dragon...the N/A does very respectably against his turbo'ed sibling- why? You keep braking and hitting the gas- no real time on that mountain road for the turbo to spool up. However, taking an 850, say with the smaller turbo that spools up much faster ('97 850) there is no contest...one that's been upgraded or chipped certainly leaves him in the dust.

That all said, if you pay the bucks to do all of the mods to your non-turbo 850 to get the weight down, do the intake, the throttle body butterfly, change out the transmission, etc....you would have paid more than if you had purchased a turbo model to begin with. Thus, the discussion comes full circle- save your money and buy a turbo 850 if you're wanting speed- or if you already have an N/A, sell it and use the proceeds to help you buy one. Tuned correctly (not a ton of money to do this on these older cars) an 850 w/ turbo will outperform an N/A and like one poster said earlier, 99% of those who are on MVS and own 850's (turbo or not) will agree.

[aibast]

I have a 1992 850GLT stock 20V 2,5 125kW version (european version as I live in Estonia). It does come more alive in 4000-5800 rpm range, but the difference isn't as great as on turbod cars. Most of the time just cruising around in 1500-2400 rpm range. At the moment looking for a 960 throttle plate as I dislike the hesitation in the throttle (my 480 is a lot sharper in that part). As for the airbox mod? Well the hot air intake is for one reason and one reason only - as I just found out today. It's in there as in the humid and cold weather (by cold I mean below -15 C ) the throttle plate gets some ice on it and wants to stick to the housing. That is it, no more function to it.

And I like the NA 850, a good family car. Have driven some 850R's and modified 850T5R, stock T5, 2.0L T5 and so on. It doesn't have the torque of a turbo car, but the power it has comes way more smother. I have also a 480 turbo - lots of mods and as fast as a T5R. also have had a 740 turbo. So not a stranger to turbo Volvos.

Getting more power from the 850 NA is a bit of waist of money, as there are also turbo models to get. So If I can get a bit more response out of a stock NA motor I'm happy.