Best Way To Start A Flooded Engine 1998v70 (with slight diversion to quantum mechanics , relativity, dark matter states,

[RickHaleParker]

Thanks for the tip. In my situation however i have to park on the side of the driveway that is away from the house and far from the garage. That means at best i'd have to run an extension cord across the driveway. It's a shame too because i actually have a battery conditioner one of the modern types but only used it on batteries i have used in the house.

The Solar battery maintainers are not the best solution but they can help alleviate the problem. Just keep in mind the Solar panel power rating is for a standard intensity of 1000W per meter squared. That does not happen in the winter. If you go this route, get one of the bigger panels.

[abscate]

The rule of thumb fir mobile solar is if you calculate you need x watts of power, buy 4x of solar panels. 6x if they are cheap. That will account for both dirt , degradation, and cos loss

[MrAl]

Thanks for the tip. In my situation however i have to park on the side of the driveway that is away from the house and far from the garage. That means at best i'd have to run an extension cord across the driveway. It's a shame too because i actually have a battery conditioner one of the modern types but only used it on batteries i have used in the house.

The Solar battery maintainers are not the best solution but they can help alleviate the problem. Just keep in mind the Solar panel power rating is for a standard intensity of 1000W per meter squared. That does not happen in the winter. If you go this route, get one of the bigger panels.

Hello again,

Well it is interesting to talk to someone who understands insolation levels. I dont meet many people these days that pay attention to that stuff too much. Back in the mid 80's when i worked in the industry i designed part of the line-tied inverters used (at the time) by Sandia Labs in Albuquerque New Mexico so i got a lot of exposure to solar panels even big ones. The one we used for testing was huge about a million dollars worth and that was way back then. Also a million dollar showcase house used one of our inverters as they were going full solar, heating and electric and computer controlled entire house and that was circa mid 80's.

But yeah i did look into that and wasnt too happy what i found mostly because the car only gets about 4 hours of sun at a significant angle per day, so the power level would most likely be low so i'd need a bigger solar panel. It would be impossible to set up a solar tracker too because the car is in the shade of some larger trees too so that beats the solar charging route i think. Maybe if i put a bigger panel on the roof of the car Still, it may help with a smaller one i'd have to buy one and try it out in real life. Too bad my parking location isnt all that good for solar either.

Maybe you did some electrical engineering too in the past? It is interesting to frequent the electronics forums on the web there sure are plenty of them. We get into some good discussions too about a wide range of electronic/electrical design/testing issues. If you care too, check out "All About Circuits" it's a good site with a lot of people who work in this area. if you enjoy talking about these things you'll like that site.

So lucky the car is working ok now. It just amazes me how crazy this car is. To think that it would make it very very hard to start the car just because the coolant temperature sensor was bad. That seems crazy to me. I almost couldnt start the car several times and needed a jump several times because it took so many tries to get it started.

[MrAl]

The rule of thumb fir mobile solar is if you calculate you need x watts of power, buy 4x of solar panels. 6x if they are cheap. That will account for both dirt , degradation, and cos loss

Hi,

Yeah the cos(TH) loss is bad here because of where i have to park. Maybe 4 hours of angled sunlight per day if i am lucky. The trees block the sun a lot. I may actually need 10 or more times the normal rating which makes the panel probably too big to be practical. One in the side window probably wouldnt be enough, although of course real life testing would have to be done and that means buying a panel with controller. I have a somewhat small panel with no controller, maybe i'll set it up for a test.

[abscate]

I’m a published author on electronics. I did all the circuits in Horowitz and Hill with the lightbulbs with the slash through them

We don’t give engineers enough credit IMHO

1999, when Bosch put out ME7, was the first electronic management it engine torque based on inputs and conditions in closed loop. ( I don’t know if they were first but 90% sure they were)

30 years later all cars do this. 30 years later there first pass at this still works darn well on four cars in my fleet

[RickHaleParker]

Well it is interesting to talk to someone who understands insolation levels. I dont meet many people these days that pay attention to that stuff too much.

I started back in Sr. high school, which was in the second half of 70s. I took Environmental science the first year it was offered. The class that year wrote the course. Energy was one of the topics we selected for the course. I got hook on alternative energy at that time. I was going to go into Solar energy but the bottom fell out of the market just as I was finishing High School. Did not go into alternative energy as a profession but keep it as a hobby.

My finial report for the energy topic was Hydrogen as a energy source. We know now Hydrogen not a solution because here on earth, Hydrogen is not a fuel it is a manufactured product. At the best Hydrogen can be a energy carrier.

Back in the 80s Solar photovoltaic was ~$10 per watt. So $1,000,000 only got you ~ 100,000 Watts worth of panels.

You mean 4 Sun Hours per day in the winter. Which is about what you would want to use for worst case scenario.
1 Sun Hour =1 kW-hour of insolation per m². Same math you use for calculating electrical energy consumption ( watt-hours) .
500W average on a 8 hour day = 500W * 8 hour = 4000W-hour = 4kW-hour = 4 Sun hours for the day.
20W panel, 4 Sun Hours, = 20W * 4 hours = 80Wh of energy harvest for the day. You can use the charging voltage to convert the Watt-hours to Amp-hours. Formula is (Wh)/(V) =(Ah). Float voltage = 12.8V. 80Wh/12.8V = 6.25Ah.

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Your car:

The temperature is use to calculate the Air density. From the Air density the amount of Oxygen in a single charge to the cylinder is calculated. Because the amount of Oxygen is what limits the amount of fuel that can be burned. To get a engine started you need a richer Oxygen/Fuel ratio. That why the old carbureted cars had a Choke to help get the engine started.

I think what is going on with your car is: It trying to start with a Oxygen/Fuel ratio that is calculated for a lower Air density or Oxygen content. In other words the Oxygen/Fuel ratio is too lean to get the engine started. This is because the problem with your temperature sensor is denying the ECM the data it needs to make the correct calculations.

My 1998 would not start when it got real cold. But it was the Barometric pressure sensor that was acting up at low temperatures. Barometric pressure is also use to calculate Air density and Oxygen content.

[MrAl]

Well it is interesting to talk to someone who understands insolation levels. I dont meet many people these days that pay attention to that stuff too much.

I started back in Sr. high school, which was in the second half of 70s. I took Environmental science the first year it was offered. The class that year wrote the course. Energy was one of the topics we selected for the course. I got hook on alternative energy at that time. I was going to go into Solar energy but the bottom fell out of the market just as I was finishing High School. Did not go into alternative energy as a profession but keep it as a hobby.

My finial report for the energy topic was Hydrogen as a energy source. We know now Hydrogen not a solution because here on earth, Hydrogen is not a fuel it is a manufactured product. At the best Hydrogen can be a energy carrier.

Back in the 80s Solar photovoltaic was ~$10 per watt. So $1,000,000 only got you ~ 100,000 Watts worth of panels.

You mean 4 Sun Hours per day in the winter. Which is about what you would want to use for worst case scenario.
1 Sun Hour =1 kW-hour of insolation per m². Same math you use for calculating electrical energy consumption ( watt-hours) .
500W average on a 8 hour day = 500W * 8 hour = 4000W-hour = 4kW-hour = 4 Sun hours for the day.
20W panel, 4 Sun Hours, = 20W * 4 hours = 80Wh of energy harvest for the day. You can use the charging voltage to convert the Watt-hours to Amp-hours. Formula is (Wh)/(V) =(Ah). Float voltage = 12.8V. 80Wh/12.8V = 6.25Ah.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your car:

The temperature is use to calculate the Air density. From the Air density the amount of Oxygen in a single charge to the cylinder is calculated. Because the amount of Oxygen is what limits the amount of fuel that can be burned. To get a engine started you need a richer Oxygen/Fuel ratio. That why the old carbureted cars had a Choke to help get the engine started.

I think what is going on with your car is: It trying to start with a Oxygen/Fuel ratio that is calculated for a lower Air density or Oxygen content. In other words the Oxygen/Fuel ratio is too lean to get the engine started. This is because the problem with your temperature sensor is denying the ECM the data it needs to make the correct calculations.

My 1998 would not start when it got real cold. But it was the Barometric pressure sensor that was acting up at low temperatures. Barometric pressure is also use to calculate Air density and Oxygen content.

Well thanks again for the reply.

As you probably know, the angle Steve and i discussed is also a factor in determining the power density. The cosine (or sine) of the angle also determines what power is available. I like to go by the sine of the angle because it relates to the horizontal plane, and with that in mind the angle for my passenger side window is very acute which makes it even worse. I'd say i get between 10 degrees and 45 degrees maybe 50 degrees relative to the horizontal plane.
However, my panel would most likely have to sit vertical or nearly so because it would be inside a window probably flat up against it. Also, the angle is actually a solid angle which would have to be projected into the plane of the panel, so that gets a bit more complciated. Now since around this time of year the sun is in the southern sky, that means the angle is always very acute. I'd say around 10 to 40 degrees. That means the angle relative to the panel is 50 to 80 degrees. The sine is therefore 0.766 to 0.866 the average of which is 0.816. So i get a maximum of 816 watts per square meter. Take away around 10 percent for the window, that comes to about 730 w/m^2. The efficiency of the panel maybe 15 percent, so we are down to 109 watts per square meter. Now the panel would be roughly 12x12 inches which is roughly one nineth of that. That brings us down to about 12 watts. Over 4 hours that is 48 watt hours. Over 1 day that is 48 watt hours per day. At 14 volts that is about 3.4 amps for 4 hours or about 13 ampere hours per day. That might just be enough.

So the proof would be in the actual testing. A slight problem though is that every time i use the car i would have to move the panel in order to be able to see out the window it was installed behind. Maybe rig up a contraption with a pulley to tilt it up and down.

So it would take some work. I'd have to install the panel and run some decent wire to the battery. I wonder if it would be worth the trouble. On cloudy days i'd probably get 0.1 ampere hours on that day i bet ha ha. Overall though it could work.
Oh yes, in winter snow would have to be cleared off as well as frozen mist. The snow doesnt come that much here, but the frost is always there on cold mornings. The effectiveness would probably go down by another 50 percent, might have to use two panels 12x12 inches each.

We recently had a family of mice move in we had to get rid of. Maybe i could rig up a couple mice and some wheels and have them run in the wheels to run a couple generators to charge the battery 24/7 ha ha .
Oh wait i got it now, i could hook a motor up to the battery which runs a generator which charges the battery. Yeah, that's the ticket (har har har). I just love those over 100 percent efficient inventions
Ok, so how about a windmill on the roof ? he he. Interesting though the windmill would charge the battery while the car was being driven. Hmmmm ...

[RickHaleParker]

So the proof would be in the actual testing. A slight problem though is that every time i use the car i would have to move the panel in order to be able to see out the window it was installed behind. Maybe rig up a contraption with a pulley to tilt it up and down.

Install the panels to the back side of the sun visors. Then you can just flip them up and down.

The snow doesnt come that much here, but the frost is always there on cold mornings. The effectiveness would probably go down by another 50 percent, might have to use two panels 12x12 inches each.

Solar panels are dark in color. Dark color materials absorb solar radiation and convert it to convert it to longer wave length heat. Your car would be all warmed up and frost free windows when you walk out to it.

We recently had a family of mice move in we had to get rid of. Maybe i could rig up a couple mice and some wheels and have them run in the wheels to run a couple generators to charge the battery 24/7 ha ha .
Oh wait i got it now, i could hook a motor up to the battery which runs a generator which charges the battery. Yeah, that's the ticket (har har har). I just love those over 100 percent efficient inventions
Ok, so how about a windmill on the roof ? he he. Interesting though the windmill would charge the battery while the car was being driven. Hmmmm ...

Na ... build a Dark energy converter. You don't need to know what Dark energy is ... just how to convert it to a form of energy you can use.

[MrAl]

So the proof would be in the actual testing. A slight problem though is that every time i use the car i would have to move the panel in order to be able to see out the window it was installed behind. Maybe rig up a contraption with a pulley to tilt it up and down.

Install the panels to the back side of the sun visors. Then you can just flip them up and down.

The snow doesnt come that much here, but the frost is always there on cold mornings. The effectiveness would probably go down by another 50 percent, might have to use two panels 12x12 inches each.

Solar panels are dark in color. Dark color materials absorb solar radiation and convert it to convert it to longer wave length heat. Your car would be all warmed up and frost free windows when you walk out to it.

We recently had a family of mice move in we had to get rid of. Maybe i could rig up a couple mice and some wheels and have them run in the wheels to run a couple generators to charge the battery 24/7 ha ha .
Oh wait i got it now, i could hook a motor up to the battery which runs a generator which charges the battery. Yeah, that's the ticket (har har har). I just love those over 100 percent efficient inventions
Ok, so how about a windmill on the roof ? he he. Interesting though the windmill would charge the battery while the car was being driven. Hmmmm ...

Na ... build a Dark energy converter. You don't need to know what Dark energy is ... just how to convert it to a form of energy you can use.

Hi,

Yeah the window heating idea would probably work. Panels are at most 17 percent efficient these days i think so that leaves at least 80 percent converter to heat. So a 12x12 inch panel would get about one ninth of the total insolation power and about 80 percent of that. Might work, remains to be tested of course.

Battery seems to be doing well now even after 6 days of sitting. Should last some years.
I looked up some cooling fan numbers and found some for other cars, the power of these fans could work out to as high as 50 amp. Cant find the spec for my actual car model though, yet. Harder to measure now too since the fan doesnt run anymore, or at least not when the engine is shut off.

[RickHaleParker]

Battery seems to be doing well now even after 6 days of sitting. Should last some years.
I looked up some cooling fan numbers and found some for other cars, the power of these fans could work out to as high as 50 amp. Cant find the spec for my actual car model though, yet. Harder to measure now too since the fan doesnt run anymore, or at least not when the engine is shut off.

Did you check to see if the glove box light turns off when you close the glove box. That could be draining a battery.