2.5T (S60) Observation regarding engine vibration Topic is solved

[mrbrian200]

Scratch the contactless position sensor business. The new one (Bosch PN ending 131) has pots just like the old one. Pics I saw (housing looked exactly identical- unique to Volvos) must apply strictly to newer model years. The pots weren't the issue therefore I'm not worried about that. And yes the stop/dampening mechanism I can confirm does wear resulting the in throttle plate sitting further open by 2-3 degrees at idle. In my experiments with the old one I found greasing everything slows the snap back/return to idle position rate somewhat. Possibly enough to affect behavior at shift points and/or releasing the accelerator pedal quick from a WOT. However grease on the final gear (at the throttle plate to reduction gear only, keep the center reduction bearing surface and motor teeth driven by the stepper motor dry) and the bounce/dampening mechanism did not affect that the return behavior and made the entire mechanism run much more smoothly. It would be important to use a good synthetic that isn't going to try to run and stays where you put it hot or increase viscosity in the winter. I am trying a few dabs of 21030 (one of the best out there that I am aware). Might extend service life. Maybe not. From the best I can tell (and gauging the age and mileage on my car 10/85k mi) you want to start paying attention for initial symptoms probably around 5/50, and plan on replacing the ETA as a maintenance item at intervals no longer than 10/100.

I'm thinking Volvo would have been better off sticking with the Marelli ETMs with the contactless sensor update. I know someone in town with '01 V70 2.4T with over 200k miles. His position sensor was updated under the first/original owner under warranty he's had zero issues with the ETM (not even to clean). I would suspect the switch to the Bosch units was one of Ford's doings (one glance between the two it's obvious the Bosch design is far cheaper). Ford uses them extensively in various models. Something about these engines doesn't sit well with the Bosch ETAs (either due to the nature of turbo pressure or a fluid/mechanical resonance in the intake) as I mentioned a close relative with an '02 Jetta base 2.0 @ 200k and no sign of trouble from the virtually identical Bosch ETA on it.

[mrbrian200]

5 days with new ETA no sign of major problems except maybe a winky boost solenoid at times. CEL stated off. Made a 200 mile round trip into Chicago Saturday.
Highway econ is about what I would expect with rear toe out by .5/ camber -1.3 (little old lady hit right rear tire/rear quarter in Feb). Just dropped it back at the body shop. They fixed the quarter panel and replaced the wheel but tried to say the alignment problem was pre-existing. Fortunately I had that checked a couple weeks before and kept the printout. But I had to take it back to that same shop to have them run it again to prove it. Not happy with that insurer (State Farm), or at least the adjuster (in this case I believe the shop owner acts in that capacity). I cast an official vote of no confidence in their direction especially considering a fair number of typical claimants wouldn't catch this on their own, and even less likely have the documentation to prove it.

[mrbrian200]

Update: Body shop/Insurance co sat on the car for 3 weeks than calls today saying that because the e-brake is non functional and the splash shield is crumpled (I acknowledge the e-brake was non functional when I bought the car in November, they seem to think the splash shield is not accident related) the alignment issue is must be pre existing (even though I have proof with an alignment report that was performed weeks before the collision that the rear alignment was good before the accident, and re checked by that same shop after their first attempt to deny the repair/coverage showing the RR wheel that got hit/T-bone scenario is out of spec post collision.

Did anybody else watch that PBS Frontline about the Hurricane Sandy homeowners being denied over non related conditions (such as private insurers handling the claims listing things like a minor crack in the foundation as the excuse to deny a total flood loss claim)?

The policy on this car is under Geico, but if this is what State Farm has become I say 2 other vehicles and a homeowners policy that are under a SF policy won't be for much longer! Reminder the collision was not my fault. The other driver (at fault) policy on the Lexus she was driving was through SF.

[mrbrian200]

Originally inquired about this in a the xemodex area but never saw a response (not sure they're still watching these forums).

I'm still seeing this occasionally (see attached pic/scope output from VIDA). Though not nearly as pronounced or as often as I had observed back in march, accompanied by unexplained momentary (5-30 second) drops in econ usually on short trips where the engine bay isn't good and toasty.

It occurred to me as the knock sensors are a specialized piezo element that get (dedicated) +5v vrefs is it possible that the knock sensors can fail in a way that their +5v feeds can begin shorting to chassis with that short correlating with normal sensor output, or that current back to the ECU sensor ground becomes excessive/ begins to interfere with +5 Vref used by various other management sensors?

I have seen comments stating the knock sensors, when they go bad, tend to act up worse in cold weather (presently summer/hot). The new OE knock sensors can be found for roughly $60 (not expensive). But I thought I'd run this little theory past someone before spending money to replace a knock sensor that may (or may not?) be bad. I've never seen a knock sensor DTC. But that doesn't say much (I never saw a DTC for the ETA which was mechanically failing).
The CEL as remained off since replacing the ETA, by the way. No stored DTCs and emissions readiness has been set.
It also stands to reason this could be indicative of some isolation circuitry inside the ECU going bad (that normally would isolate the cyclical current draw through the knock sensors from other sensitive ECU control circuits)

[MadeInJapan]

Update: Body shop/Insurance co sat on the car for 3 weeks than calls today saying that because the e-brake is non functional and the splash shield is crumpled (I acknowledge the e-brake was non functional when I bought the car in November, they seem to think the splash shield is not accident related) the alignment issue is must be pre existing (even though I have proof with an alignment report that was performed weeks before the collision that the rear alignment was good before the accident, and re checked by that same shop after their first attempt to deny the repair/coverage showing the RR wheel that got hit/T-bone scenario is out of spec post collision.

Did anybody else watch that PBS Frontline about the Hurricane Sandy homeowners being denied over non related conditions (such as private insurers handling the claims listing things like a minor crack in the foundation as the excuse to deny a total flood loss claim)?

The policy on this car is under Geico, but if this is what State Farm has become I say 2 other vehicles and a homeowners policy that are under a SF policy won't be for much longer! Reminder the collision was not my fault. The other driver (at fault) policy on the Lexus she was driving was through SF.

Fight them!!! We had a claim 9 years post accident and we proved our alignment was good before the accident but not after and had receipts for the tires that the accident continued to cause having to be replaced. The end result was that they paid for total repair (again)!! This time I was watching closely and was not going to quit until my alignment was right! A repair under insurance is good for the life of the car as long as you own it...that's the law!! What they are trying to skate by with at this point, in you case is to say they don't have to do the repair because it's pre-existing, but you have the data to prove them wrong! If the insurance company does not listen, then it needs to go to the insurance commissioner. I'm sorry if you have already discussed this in the thread- I did not read all of it. But anyway, I encourage you to fight this- the data is on your side!!!!

[mrbrian200]

I'm starting a new thread.. remaining issue(s) have nothing to do with engine/chassis vibration. Excessive vibration has been 100% solved. In essence it was running lean at idle with poor atomization and a weak spark.

To save newbies the headache of sorting through this very long thread that got off topic (my fault, sorry). If you're experiencing excessive engine feedback/vibration through the steering wheel/chassis these are the areas you want to look at, in order as they pertained to my experience. This might be worth (attn: mods) placing on a sticky.

1. Electronic Throttle Assembly (Bosch type). Internal wear of the stepper motor reduction gears means the throttle plate does not always fully return to idle stop position. Cleaning the throttle body will not help. It sometimes runs lean at idle with intermittent DTCs for MAF and Long Term Fuel Trim (rich). You may also see intermittent DTCs while cruising for LTFT both lean and rich and MAF. Sometimes the car will start/stall, start/bad sputtering idle, or (when cold) start directly to low idle without revving up. Don't buy used ETAs, they're likely to have the same problem to some varying degree or will go bad in a relatively short time. My assessment on these Bosch ETAs based on the wear I saw in mine at 85k/10y is that they can counted as reliable for about 50k-70k miles and should probably be replaced on that approximate schedule if you expect the car to continue run 'like new' and pass emissions (if testing applies to the area you live)

2. Clogged/dirty injectors. Fuel not adequately atomized. Address as appropriate. Also check fuel pressure as part of a general fuel system diagnostic. Pressure at key on/engine off should be near 60PSI. Engine running at idle should be around 43-45 PSI. While accelerating pressure should vary between 45-60PSI with a correlation to hard acceleration/WOT to higher pressures. But for purposes of diagnosing excessive idle vibration just make sure you see stable pressure in the low-mid 40s at idle.

3. Resistance at ring terminals to coil pack grounds. Weak spark. Address as appropriate. The wire crimps at these ring terminals can be soldered. Due to oil contamination you'll want to use a paste flux with a brush found the plumbing section at the hardware store with silver bearing *lead free* solder (lead sublimates at under hood temperatures: you'll again have problems with these grounds someday). The little bit of flux in 'flux core electronic solder' won't be enough to clear the oil and get a good connection. Oil can also seep past the weather pack seals of the coil pack terminal connectors and cause problems both with the terminals and the terminal wire crimps, be aware.

4. Engine/chassis/battery grounds and main B+ (between battery and engine firewall). Check these for voltage drop. Replace/repair as necessary.

5. Engine and subframe mounts. These get blamed a lot. I'm not sure (in most cases) they are responsible. Worn engine mounts bad enough to transmit noticeable vibration will get noisy when selecting between reverse and forward gears and/or clunks and rattle while driving. Bad subframe bushings will result in sloppy steering, wheel alignment drift + wandering on the highway. If you're not experiencing any of these symptoms put these at the very bottom of your list.

It should be noted: my impression is that these cars are designed to give a 'light feedback' through the steering wheel -- just enough to alert the driver to any uneven roughness or a miss. Yes you can feel it, but generally will fade into the background/not command your attention while sitting at a stoplight.

[VNDETTA]

I have similar issues with my '07 2.5T V70. Have not gotten around to troubleshooting fuel system.

Any chance injectors are to blame? Perhaps a partial blockage got freed up for those 15 miles of bliss, then clogged up again?

Give this man a cigar!

Seriously, you had the answer in your first post, and you overlooked it. Don't sweat it though, because I've seen ASE certified dealership mechanics do the same thing and run the gamut replacing parts on a car when it could be fixed by some that costs less then ten dollars and ten minutes.

Excuse me for skipping ahead, and I'm sure that you have probably fixed it already, but just in case, let me lay it out for you.

The car was a project car, meaning it had sat for a long period of time in all likelihood. What happens when gasoline with ethanol in it sits for long periods of time? It goes sour, with a quickening that would make a Highlander jealous.

You changed the fuel filter, (next time, get a clear glass jar and empty the fuel out of the filter and see what it looks like. If it comes out looking like Coca Cola, you've found your problem) and the car gets better for 15 minutes. Just long enough for it to pickup stuff in the bottom of the tank (varnish, trash, etc.), and clog that filter yet again. Yes, it was running better, but not perfect.

Today's gas stations, especially with the additional of ethanol, are putting out one of the worst products we've seen in 30 years as far as quality goes. You should change your fuel filter at least once a year or every 15k miles under GOOD conditions with a perfect running car.

My advice? Drive the car a few hundred miles, change the fuel filter again. Rinse, repeat, until the fuel that comes out of the filter looks cleaner than something that was pumped out of a septic tank.

Best of luck.

[VNDETTA]

Update: Body shop/Insurance co sat on the car for 3 weeks than calls today saying that because the e-brake is non functional and the splash shield is crumpled (I acknowledge the e-brake was non functional when I bought the car in November, they seem to think the splash shield is not accident related) the alignment issue is must be pre existing (even though I have proof with an alignment report that was performed weeks before the collision that the rear alignment was good before the accident, and re checked by that same shop after their first attempt to deny the repair/coverage showing the RR wheel that got hit/T-bone scenario is out of spec post collision.

Did anybody else watch that PBS Frontline about the Hurricane Sandy homeowners being denied over non related conditions (such as private insurers handling the claims listing things like a minor crack in the foundation as the excuse to deny a total flood loss claim)?

The policy on this car is under Geico, but if this is what State Farm has become I say 2 other vehicles and a homeowners policy that are under a SF policy won't be for much longer! Reminder the collision was not my fault. The other driver (at fault) policy on the Lexus she was driving was through SF.

I still have State Farm for now, although it is only because of budgetary reasons. After the shenanigans they pulled around here after Katrina (I live on the Gulf of Mexico) and in Florida the years before, I'm hoping that they get slapped with a class action lawsuit that bankruptI's them.

If you don't remember, I'll give you the bullet points:

- In Florida, all homeowners insurance companies QUIT OFFERING INSURANCE in Florida. That's right, you could not insure your home in Florida under any circumstances. Thankfully the state stepped in and told the insurance companies that if they were going to offer homeowners insurance in other states, then they had to offer it in their state or else they could not do business of any kind in that state.

- In Mississippi, State Farm got caught with shredder trucks shredding documents by the millions of pages to try and hide proof that people ever had a policy with them.

- People hundreds of miles inland were denied on their claims for not having flood insurance. Why? Because when the roof got ripped off by the wind and tornadoes, and it took weeks for the adjusters to get out there, naturally it rained inside the house. Causing water damage, which they claimed was flood damage.

- The wind insurance, for a simple 100k dollar policy on our sheetmetal building(s) at work, went from a premium of $2,000 a year before Katrina to, and this is not an exaggeration, $14,000 a year. On a $100k policy.

[mrbrian200]

[quote="VNDETTA
Seriously, you had the answer in your first post, and you overlooked it. Best of luck.[/quote]

Yeah happens to me with a new, unfamiliar vehicle. Once I become expressly familiar with a specific car I tend not to even need the diagnostic tool (I know exactly what the problem is by observed symptoms).

Previous car ('95 Cirrus, freebie from my sister, crank no start one morning) Dealer said it was the ECU at a cost of over $1000. She had it towed back to the driveway and bought a VW. Nope, not the ECU. Chip buried in the distributor that determines ignition advance bad (had spark, not at the right time). Also Trans would go into limp mode (locked in second gear) occasionally. Trans shop wanted to rebuild the trans for $2500. Nope bad TCM/computer (failing MOSFET that sends PWM output to L/R solenoid). That first year with the car was a test of patience but I every time I consulted an ASE I wasn't convinced with their diagnosis. On that car most problems revolved around excessively high engine bay temps and components that couldn't take the heat long term. I figured out that pulling the high speed fan relay would trigger the ECU to command fan on low at all times at Key on/running and kept the engine bay cooler. From that instant forward it was a very good reliable car...until it started to rust out bad last year and I started over again (new to me, unfamiliar vehicle) with this Volvo, with two new systems I haven't worked with before (electronic throttle body and turbocharged). I'm about half way to getting my head wrapped around this one. But I'll keep the VIDA handy nonetheless. The very nature of the turbocharger adds a level of complexity to engine management (and diagnostics) ... by symptom without verifying against live data becomes somewhat of a crapshoot.

With regard to this last bit of trouble (scope pic post above). When I zoom in the frequency is too fast to be a single coil pack arcing/spiking the ECU - it would have to be all 5 of them intermittently acting up (or not) all at the same time. My gut is telling me the knock sensor has failed in such a way that it grounds it's +5vref with each cylinder pop, and when doing so pulls enough current to create a voltage drop through an internal supply trace in the ECU (affecting sensor readings and/or supply voltages for everything else). If a new knock sensor doesn't cure it for good I'll try stabilizing the ECU supply voltage with an external at the load center, if no go there I'm probably looking at sending the ECU to xemodex for R&R.

[mrbrian200]

I'm still trying to figure why the ETA internal gears wear on the S60, meanwhile my sister's '02 Jetta with 200k on the odometer is fine (I took the cover off her eta just to get a look, it's up top). Identical basic design (different dimensions/bolt pattern to the intake plenum).
It's either that the turbo pressure or higher intake volume on the S60 puts more stress on the throttle plate, causing these (self lubricating Nylon infused with Teflon gears) to wear, or, I notice, on the Jetta the PCV gasses are injected *after* the throttle plate instead of before on the S60 (fine particulates suspended in the engine oil work their way past the plate bearing/into the ETA and act as an abrasive that wears these gears down, notably in the area closest to the throttle plate). The world may never know for sure lest Volvo and Bosch engineers get together to figure it out.