S60 Transmission back to its bad habits

BobbyC · Post by **BobbyC** » 25 Jun 2011, 22:13

I recently had the auto trans fluid flushed/filled and the adaptations erased by my dealer because my '01 S60 T5 Geartronic (106k total miles) was shifting down with a HARD "clunk" to 1st gear when slowing to a stop. I also had a flared 2/3 shift (but even though my Trans Serial # was listed in the middle of the TSB/TNN serial number range for the B4 cover replacement, the dealer said my car was NOT of part of that TNN). They also verified I have the latest software installed.

Initially after the service the trans was awful, but after a few miles of driving my shifts became smooth and the "clunking" went away for over 100mi. I thought I'd died and gone to heaven not waiting for the violent "clunk" on every 2/1 shift. It was like having a new car!

Now after a couple hundred miles the "clunk" 2/1 shifts are back again, usually when the transmission is very hot (city driving at 100 degree Dallas temperatures), but it's intermittent otherwise. Some 2/1 downshifts are butter smooth, while other clunk and feel like the transmission is shifting the entire powerplant in its mounts (dealer said the mounts were fine-I asked them to inspect them). If kind of feels like you're almost running over something in the road under the car.

As an experiment, I tried using the "manual" Geartronic feature (never used it before) today and found that it downshifed 2/1 smoothly every time. I don't know if this is a coincidence, or somehow related (which is partly why I am asking). Not sure how the trans "sees" manual vs. auto mode.

After using "manual" and watching it annunciate each downshift on the cluster, it is back to shifting down smoothly even in the "auto" mode. Again, this could be coincidence or somehow related. I frankly don't know enough about the workings of the transmission to hazard a guess.

A transmission specialist told me the AW-50-55 is known for sticking solenoids and sticking valve body components, and the dealer said that if the adapts din't fix the problem, the only rational solution is a $5000 Volvo rebuilt unit (he said new vale bodies are a waste of money). My trans has only 20,000mi since a rebuild (with a valve body replacement as part of the rebuild), but the dealer said this early failure isn't unusual, especially with non-Volvo rebuilds. He said even then, remanufactured units rarely last as long as new transmissions, which are no longer available at any cost (he said they'd be about $8000 if available).

Obviously, spending another $5000 on a transmission for a car that Car Max appraised at $3000, (or $5300 if they were re-selling it) doesn't make good economic sense, so I am wondering if there are any other avenues that have been used for sticking solenoids (if, indeed, that is my problem)? Someone said SeaFoam makes a transmission additive (Sea Foam "Trans-Tune") that supposedly cures sticking solenoids, but given the transmission had only 20k miles on it (with synthetic fluid since rebuilt), and Volvo just did a flush/fill with synthetic fluid, I doubt I have any varnish causing possible sticking.

If using the manual mode stopped the hard-shift, I'd also doubt something was sticking physically only in "auto" mode, though I have no idea how the AW 50-55 thinks, which is why I am asking here.

Anyone?

Bob

Post by **JRL** » 26 Jun 2011, 05:56

Most of the time it is the valve body. It is the valve body that causes this most of the time
Is it a waste of time on a 100K mile 01 tranny? possibly.
Because the thing has had a hard early life with the original Stop Neutral programming, the clutches and bands are surely pretty weak.
If you want to keep the car for another year or two you need to do something.
Either spend the money on a new (rebuilt) trans or give a valvebody a shot.
I've only done one but that was on a low mileage 2000 V70R and the clunking had just started.
My dealer who is usually quite cooperative said it would be a crapshoot, but would give it a shot and made me a deal, I won!

Car is perfect, shifts like new
Approx $12-$1500 vs. 4-5K, up to you. No guarantees but it may work.
Make sure you have the latest software, adaptions are reset and the new drive cycle done

Oh and install a new B4 servo cover anyway. For a $14 part and it's very dumb not to do this while you're in there (I did that at the same time) They said it looked good but you should do everything possible.

Oh, one more caveat, only do this if your car is in otherwise in excellent shape, otherwise, get it running the best you can and trade it in, hoping it does not flare while they're giving you a trade in number

BobbyC · Post by **BobbyC** » 26 Jun 2011, 08:33

JRL wrote:Most of the time it is the valve body. It is the valve body that causes this most of the time
Is it a waste of time on a 100K mile 01 tranny? possibly.
Because the thing has had a hard early life with the original Stop Neutral programming, the clutches and bands are surely pretty weak.

So you think that even though the car had a complete rebuild with a new valve body only 20k ago, it's possibly a waste of time working on the transmission? Cost wise, the car is not worth fixing at that $5000 level. I agree.

If you want to keep the car for another year or two you need to do something.
Either spend the money on a new (rebuilt) trans or give a valvebody a shot.
I've only done one but that was on a low mileage 2000 V70R and the clunking had just started.

After the last $4000 rebuilt transmission only 20k ago, I am reluctant to spend another $5k. I don't know what they would get for a valve body replacement. I see in the rebuild paperwork, they installed a valve body ($800) only 20,000 miles ago, but I am sure it was a rebuilt valve body for that price.

My dealer who is usually quite cooperative said it would be a crapshoot, but would give it a shot and made me a deal, I won!

Car is perfect, shifts like new
Approx $12-$1500 vs. 4-5K, up to you. No guarantees but it may work.
Make sure you have the latest software, adaptions are reset and the new drive cycle done

As I mentioned in the post, the car just returned from the dealership after a $400 adapt procedure, new fluid, and has the latest software installed. They would NOT do a drive cycle. Said they don't do them any more. Told me to drive normally and the car would adapt by itself.

Oh and install a new B4 servo cover anyway. For a $14 part and it's very dumb not to do this while you're in there (I did that at the same time) The dealer said it looked good but you should do everything possible.

Believe me, I asked the dealership to replace the B4, but they said they didn't need to. Perhaps I could take it back and insist. It's $160 (and I OK'd the work when I dropped the car off), but if it would help, that's fine.

Oh, one more caveat, only do this if your car is in otherwise in excellent shape, otherwise, get it running the best you can and trade it in, hoping it does not flare while they're giving you a trade in number.
The car is otherwise excellent. Few dings, interior like new. Clean as a whistle, and runs like new w/ the new ETM. I have $18,000 in receipts for shop work during the car's life, too. The flare isn't bad. It only flares 100 rpm, and only once in a great while. The "CLUNK" on the 2/1 shift is the annoying part.

The thing that makes me curious is why after having the work you suggested done (Flush/Fill, Adapts) it drove perfectly for a week and over 100mi+ (after the first 20 miles, during which it was awful) before it stated clunking again? Just coincidence? Maybe the new fluid lubed better (and freed things up) before the sticking resumed?

Thanks,
Bob

jda2000 · Post by **jda2000** » 27 Jun 2011, 07:11

Bobby, sorry to hear tranny problems are back.

What I would do in your place:
-buy the B4 servo cover yourself at ipdusa.com, and take it to a tranny shop with the instructions and have them replace it for you. It should not be more than an hr labor, forget the dealer.
-install a magnefine tranny filter to collect any metal shavings lurking around
-keep driving the car gently for the next 500 miles

It is possible that the tranny is past the salvageable state, but I would keep driving it until the tranny dies, which could well be another 50k miles, or trade the car now.

Post by **JRL** » 27 Jun 2011, 10:27

Forget the filter, that's not going to make or break it at this point

BobbyC · Post by **BobbyC** » 29 Jun 2011, 11:54

Ok, so I am trying to read between the lines here.

The new transmission is SHOT after 20k miles and possibly making metal, which may be causing either something in the the valve body or a solenoid to stck, and it's likely too far gone for a fix.

Sounds like a Toyota is in my future (unless I can find a really clean 745/945.

jda2000 · Post by **jda2000** » 29 Jun 2011, 15:11

BobbyC wrote:Sounds like a Toyota is in my future (unless I can find a really clean 745/945.

Not necessarily. Don't forgert the '97-'98 850/S70 is a solid car. Strong drivetrain, no ETM issues or complex electronic modules. These can go 300k miles easy if well maintained.

beefmaster · Post by **beefmaster** » 01 Jul 2011, 20:18

I have had he same issues, I did the B4 swap and 3309 flush which helped for a few hundred miles but my problems came back as well. When I bought the car the valve body had been swapped out. When I did the flush I saw no signs of foreign particles or debris or burnt/sludging of the fluid. My problem only happens after continued stop and go traffic or 30 minutes of 85 degrees and up ambient air temperature. What I am thinking, correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like a heated up fluid issue (not boiling) which is thinning out the tranny fluid and therefore shift flares and the clunk. What I am wondering is...

1.) can I replace the stock 190~192 degree thermostat with lets say a (ahem) Stant 180 or even a 160 degree thermostat to keep the temperature of the tranny fluid down. Earlier opening of the thermostat should lessen the engine coolant temperature and in return keep the tranny fluid cooler, for a period of time, but still an improved situation over the current.

2.) any known problems with the factory radiators? My car has 133k and I don't have much history on the car but it doesn't look like there has ever been any damage to the front end or the radiator having been replaced. I was thinking about doing a coolant flush, I don't know nor have I researched when this is supposed to be done. I don't know if the previously owner had maybe been using well water to top the coolant level off.

3.) After market tranny cooler? I known that a cool engine is a healthy engine and same goes for transmissions. I can not for the life of me figure out why the arrangement of the intercooler, condensor and radiator are the way they are. The intercooler and radiator should be the most important so they should be forward of the condensor, correct me if I am wrong.

I really love the car so getting rid of it does not seem like an option and I already have a '95 850 so...opinions on anything

BobbyC · Post by **BobbyC** » 02 Jul 2011, 07:33

beefmaster wrote:I have had he same issues, I did the B4 swap and 3309 flush which helped for a few hundred miles but my problems came back as well. When I bought the car the valve body had been swapped out. When I did the flush I saw no signs of foreign particles or debris or burnt/sludging of the fluid. My problem only happens after continued stop and go traffic or 30 minutes of 85 degrees and up ambient air temperature. What I am thinking, correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like a heated up fluid issue (not boiling) which is thinning out the tranny fluid and therefore shift flares and the clunk. What I am wondering is...

Curious-Is your "clunk" on the 2/1 Downshift only like mine, or all gears?

In my case. I KNOW there was no sludge, since the tranny had only 20,000mi since a new valve body and fresh rebuild with synthetic fluid. Maybe metal particles, but unless the rebuild was improperly done, I'd doubt it.

1.) can I replace the stock 190~192 degree thermostat with lets say a (ahem) Stant 180 or even a 160 degree thermostat to keep the temperature of the tranny fluid down. Earlier opening of the thermostat should lessen the engine coolant temperature and in return keep the tranny fluid cooler, for a period of time, but still an improved situation over the current.

2.) any known problems with the factory radiators? My car has 133k and I don't have much history on the car but it doesn't look like there has ever been any damage to the front end or the radiator having been replaced. I was thinking about doing a coolant flush, I don't know nor have I researched when this is supposed to be done. I don't know if the previously owner had maybe been using well water to top the coolant level off.

3.) After market tranny cooler? I known that a cool engine is a healthy engine and same goes for transmissions. I can not for the life of me figure out why the arrangement of the intercooler, condensor and radiator are the way they are. The intercooler and radiator should be the most important so they should be forward of the condensor, correct me if I am wrong.

Like yours, mine ONLY does what it does when hot.

I spoke w/ a transmission specialist (in WA Stated) who said that the AW50-55 is prone to sticking when hot. He belongs to a professional organization who have run tests ( at symposiums) showing that even a hair drier can easily cause enough heat to cause perfectly good solenoids and valve body components to stick. He mentioned a company working on the problem, and is a year from producing coatings to hopefully eliminate the tendency to hang-up. He claims AsinWarner is aware of, but will not acknowledge the problem. He claims the group reports about 60% success in trouble-free rebuilds of this transmission in Volvo applications, and about 95% success when the AW 50-55 is installed in Japanese autos, which he says they cannot explain except for different programming.

I cannot verify any of what he says except that he has a sterling reputation in his area.

I am not sure that a cooler thermostat would help, and I am not sure that a cooler in the trans return line would cause markedly cooler running considering the exceptionally high underhood temperatures I sense in the S60. I don't know if wrapping the exhaust components with "header wrap tape" would reduce those underhood temperatures, or cause other, new problems.

I really love the car so getting rid of it does not seem like an option and I already have a '95 850 so...opinions on anything

I agree completely. I neither desire to dump the car, NOR spend another $5000 on another transmission (Not sure what a valve-body swap would cost me though not doing the job myself would probably be $2000+) that the dealer acknowledged has a spotty record. The dealer also said VB replacement alone was not a good bet, though obviously some have had good results. I wish it was possible to install a later year unit, as they seem to be far more reliable according to many. The supposed reason for early-year trans problems is the old program, but in my case, my "new" transmission was ONLY used with the new programming since replacement less than 3yrs/20k miles ago, possibly eliminating this as a cause of reduced life.

I must say I find this frustrating and disappointing. I don't blame Volvo, but the shine is a bit duller compared to my previous 6 Volvos. When running right, my S60 is delightful, but having accumulated repair invoices well above 50% of the sticker price of the car in only 106k miles, it's been an expensive ride.

*

Post by **jalex19100** » 18 Oct 2011, 12:23

2001 V70, same issues as BobbyC. Only when hot, practically starts at 190degrees on the mark!

When I bought it, I was aware of the throttle and transmission issues with the particular model, but nothing appeared unusual on the test drive, which was about 20 min. The fluid level was good (but brown), everything seemed fine.

On the way home, after purchase (no used car consumer protection laws in Ohio really), it started shifting hard, up and down, and when I came to a stop and put it in park the oil light came on (leaky o-rings, all fixed now). My heart sank a little.

I ran trans-tune (I love SeaFoam products) through it, drained and filled a couple of times, put in the B4 Servo part (mine was definitely bad), and still had some issues. So I ran trans-tune through it again and then did a full flush with IPD's flush hose kit and then cut my trans return line from the radiator and put a Magnefine filter in. It is significantly better now, and when it does act up, it's not as drastic. Fluid is sweet red now, too.

I drive mostly highway, and it only shows up after driving and stopping at slower speeds for 30 min or so. I almost never see the issue with my normal routes. Even when it does start acting up, a couple of miles on the highway, or sitting off in a parking lot for 15 minutes must cool it back down, because then it's fine for a while again.

I'd say it's definitely a heat issue in my mind, and I'm searching for a trans cooler that will fit nicely and still take advantage of the electric fan in the car.