Startup noise video. 2004 XC90 2.5t

owl · Post by **owl** » 24 Nov 2011, 21:50

Hi I'm new here. Recently joined the club buying a 2004 XC90 with 95k miles. Service records were complete with no issues, all maintenance done at Volvo dealer (not sure this is a good thing, as I asked the same dealer to inspect the car and they forgot to mention or check that the oil was a bit low). It runs very nicely, but there are a couple things I want to fix or make sure are non-issues.

ATF fluid had never been changed. Thanks to the info on this great site I flushed the ATF and saved a lot of money by using Toyota T-IV instead of Volvo branded stuff. Oil was dirty.

There is a startup noise for about a minute. Asked the Volvo service and they didn't really cared about it, not sure they even checked. At first I thought it could be sticky lifter as there is some sludge on the oil cap. Did Seafoam in the crankcase, drove 30 miles, changed oil with Castrol High Mileage, and no improvement.

Don't know what to try next, so I made a video. If any of the gurus can take a quick look and tell me what you think, it would be great. (I know my serpentine belt needs to be replaced, I will do it when I find a t55 that fits there)

Post by **precopster** » 24 Nov 2011, 23:30

The fact that the dealer's technician was pre-occupied by other matters means it's time to find another dealer.

ANY noise that severe should have been investigated. It could be any number of bearings in either the accessory drive section or in the cam belt section.

I would immediately check this out and stop driving it until you are certain of where it comes from.

Remove the accessory belt with a 14mm spanner by turning the tensioner against it's direction of tension. There's usually plastic cap over the bolt; pry it off with a flat stumpy screwdriver. You'll need a routing diagram like the one attached to place it back on.

Then start the engine when cold. If the noise disappears it's somewhere in the accessory drive. It could be the tensioner pulley you just untensioned, or the alternator, or the idler pulley or power steering pump. Turn each component by hand and see if there is any courseness or vibration.

If the noise is still there, have the timing components replaced. There are only two rollers (one is a tensioner) and the water pump.

owl · Post by **owl** » 25 Nov 2011, 18:24

Thanks for the advice. I thought it could some of the accessories, but didn't think on running the car without the belt on...

Just trying to learn here. If it is some bearings, does it make sense that the noise goes away when warm? Is it because the belt gets tight/loose after it's warm? I'm going to try, but have to wait until morning to get the car really cold.

Reg the Volvo dealer, I'm not going back there. I only used them because they were nearby and the car is still under warranty by them. But after not noticing this noise (the car might been warm when they tried, but still) and not checking that the car was 1+ quart low on oil, I don't trust them.

Post by **precopster** » 26 Nov 2011, 02:46

When bearings have a lack of lubricant grease, whatever grease that IS in the bearing gets warmed up and back into a molten state therefore flowing to the bearing races.

It's not so much about the belt getting warmer or otherwise as the accessory belt tensioner has a large range of motion with a fairly even tension across its travel. There may be 1-2 mm of difference in length b/w a warm belt and a cold one but bear in mind the rayon and steel reinforcing materials in accessory belts are pretty stretch resistant.

owl · Post by **owl** » 27 Nov 2011, 11:35

So I did what you suggested. I removed the belt and started the car cold without the belt. All of the belt noise was gone, but I'm still getting the tapping noise that to me seems to come from the valve train (or around) at the driver side.

Tried the pulley by hand, and none seemed wrong. At most, the tensioner had a minimal range in and out, but it turned smooth. Maybe I should replace it to be on the safe side. As everything seemed right, I installed a new belt and started the car again. Sounds the same as with the belt off.

I made videos of everything. If you could take a look and see if you have any idea regarding the tapping sound it would be great. My guesses are lifters or inlet valves, but my opinion does not count for much!

There is no noise coming from the timing belt area. Could the noise on the valvetrain be related to the timing belt being old and needing to be replaced?

Post by **precopster** » 27 Nov 2011, 14:43

A bit hard to tell with a video but it's beginning to sound more like valvetrain noise. As the noise goes away after a minute or so it's probably going to be the hydraulic valve adjusters which are not affected by the wear state of the timing belt, unless it has skipped a tooth, but symptoms of this would be poor performance, not noise.

What weather are you having there now? Is it going to be a cold Winter? The viscosity/quality of your engine oil can be a HUGE factor in creating valvetrain noise. Even different brands of oil can affect valve noise. Are you using FULL SYNTHETIC oil at about 10W-40 rating? During really cold weather you may want to run 5W-40 and see if the results differ.

Castrol High Mileage is not recommended for Volvo turbo engines regardless of mileage. I would try a good engine flush and change oil and see how you go. I'm hoping you are not sticking to the factory recommended oil change intervals of 10,000 miles (or 15,000Ks) These turbo engines require clean, fresh oil every six months regardless of mileage and at an interval of no more than 6,000-7,000 miles.

owl · Post by **owl** » 27 Nov 2011, 20:49

Weather is not too bad yet, mornings are around 32. I wouldn't say temperature is the issue, the noise happens again after letting the car stand for a couple hours, even if the car is warm.

The Castrol GTX High Mileage I have on it is 5W30. I changed right after buying the car and plan to do so every 5000 miles. Previous owner did all maintenance at the dealer and they changed the oil every 7500... not sure what oil they used, probably Castrol GTX, as I see a dealer using Castrol, but not full synthetic. When changed the oil for the first time, it had been there for 5000 miles and didn't look too bad (except for the fact of being 1+ qt low).

Before changing the oil last time, I poured half a can of seafoam in the crankcase and left it there for 60 miles, hoping it to fix the problem but didn't do anything. Today I did half a can of seafoam in the brake vacuum line, just in case the problem was on the other side. The car "might" be smoother, but startup noise is still there. I also got a CEL that I had to reset, hopefully it will stay off.

I will plan to flush again and use full synthetic this time. Would you recommend 0W30 instead of 5W30? Mobil 1, German Castrol, or regular Castrol? I was hesitant to try full synthetic as I received the car low on oil and I don't want to get a leak or start burning oil. With the high mileage I have not lost any in about 1500 miles.

Thanks a lot for your input!

Post by **precopster** » 27 Nov 2011, 22:46

The reason I mentioned temperature was to try and match the oil viscosity you require to your weather conditions.

During warmer weather with mild mornings its OK to use a 10w 40 oil as recommended but when it's freezing, snowing or below 5 DEG celsius you want to go as low as OW-30

The next thing to look at is whether your oil pan seals can be the cause of this noise. As they heat up and stretch they can effectively seal again.

The only way to find out is to drop the oil pan and have a new set on hand.

Does your car have pressure coming out of the dipstick when the engine is warm and idling? Seafoam can clean the piston ring seats but preferably be used through the vacuum system and ON TOP of the pistons. Personally I'm not a big fan of quick fixes in the crankcase oil, especially where solvents are concerned. Does it use oil? If so it may be time for a compression check with a wet test to determine ring problems or otherwise.

owl · Post by **owl** » 28 Nov 2011, 20:50

I have not seen any oil consumption since last oil change about 1500 miles. Still a mystery is why when I changed the oil it was low. There is no smoke or pressure coming out of the dipstick. The oil cap and dipstick do have some varnish and sludge, and it is always a possibility that the previous owner run the car low on oil in between dealer visits. I know the only way to know for sure what is going on is to drop the oil pan, but I'm not ready for that yet. The car runs very smooth, no oil pressure signs, doesn't overheat. The only problem is the startup noise, but it goes away quickly.

I have been going back and forth on my mind between adding something to the oil or not. I'm trying to decide whether to do a flush, switch to full synthetic (I'm thinking AMSOIL flush and AMSOIL oil), and leave it alone for a while, or to give Auto-RX a try. Problem is, I'm extremely skeptical of any miracle cure, and Auto-RX says use dyno oil, and I don't feel good about doing that to my turbo.

Post by **Choguy03** » 29 Nov 2011, 06:49

It is sounding more and more like it may be the oil pan o-rings. The lack of oil will cause the lifter to stick ever so slightly and even a very small drop in oil pressure from old o-rings could cause that. I had 166,000 miles on mine before I changed them, but the lifters probably started sticking about 125,000. May be about time.