screeching sound like fan is catching

[MadeInJapan]

- All socket terminals you mentioned are OK: this means nothing wrong with the wiring.
- FYI, early models (1994-97) have no starter relay. Basically, 30 feeds straight to 87 and the car is started with key in position III.

- You mentioned that you installed a new ignition switch (electrical portion). This leaves the tumbler as the last culprit.

Do what jblackburn said earlier: remove the ignition switch (electrical portion) and use a flat screw driver to simulate position I, II and III (start). If this works as designed then you are down to the tumbler.

- For the tumbler, I wrote a detailed DIY for it in forum.

I agree with you unless the short in the wiring is down below the relay connector- and making contact with the wire that goes directly to the starter and is activated when the key is in position II. Remember, I get no power to the starter with the key out now or with the key in position I, so it is possible that the problems I was having earlier (starting w/ key out and/or in position I) was solved when I replaced the electrical portion of the ignition switch) in this saga. It would be helpful to know what the electrical current in that relay housing is suppose to be when the key is in position II, but then again, the car starts up even when that relay is pulled. Once again, this makes me think that there is indeed a short to that wire below the relay- if so, it should back feed into the relay circuit when I turn the key to position II- will it not???

[cn90]

You need to review the electrical diagram again:

Remove the relay:
- Resistance between 30 and 87 should be zero Ohms with relay out of the car.

With relay out and check socket terminal #86:
- Key out: 0 Volts.
- Key in Position I: 0 Volts.
- Key in Position II: 0 Volts.
- Key in Position III: 12Volts.

Any deviation from the above, the problem is either:
- Wiring between the steering column ignition switch ---> relay socket
- Tumbler.

Again, since you already replaced the ignition switch, I am thinking your tumbler is bad, mine went out at 110K, yours is now 200K and overdue.

Your tumbler probably failed in such a way that the key slot is broken "1 forward", i.e., Position II now becomes III.
Position III is still III. This explains the whole thing.

Again, remove the electrical ignition switch from the column, but leave the connection with the wiring on.
Behind the ignition switch is a slot (where the tumbler key engages in), turn this slot with the flat screw driver. There are 3 positions: I, II, and II and it should work as designed, i.e., car starts only with III.

[BEJinFbk]

Here's another quick, easy experiment:

With the green wire connected-
Stand by at the starter relay.
Have someone turn the key and start the car.
Immediately pull the relay...

[MadeInJapan]

Okay, with key in position II, here's what I get for the starter relay socket-
#30= 12.5 V
#87 in the center= 11.7V
#87 at the bottom of relay (closest to front of the car)= 12.4V
All ohmed 0 except #85 to ground (with key in position II)= 11.7ohms

I was just posting the above when you posted, which is a great post...would make sense that my tumbler is bad- "forward 1" you say- it would make sense. I should not get anything at #87 until key position III, but i'm getting 12V+ with key position II.
Btw, you said Terminal #86...you meant, #87 right? I don't see an 86 on mine...85 is the one closest to the side of the car...

I have done the pulling of the relay with the car started w/ the green wire connected and it made no difference.
I just tried it just now again- same thing- made no difference- the starter was sill engaged after the car running and relay pulled.

[cn90]

No, what I wrote above is correct, i.e., 86 is 86 and 87 is 87.
Look carefully at the relay and find the #86, then find the corresponding #86 on the socket.

Report back what #86 voltage (not Ohms):
- Position I
- Position II
- Position III

[MadeInJapan]

Okay- my problem is I need reading glasses- very hard to see these numbers...seems there are 2 86's and an 85...
Will do this and then get back to you before I go to bed here in a few mins.

[BEJinFbk]

I have done the pulling of the relay with the car started w/ the green wire connected and it made no difference.
I just tried it just now again- same thing- made no difference- the starter was sill engaged after the car running and relay pulled.

Then it's not your ignition switch.
If you pull the starter relay,
you've isolated it from this equation.

You're left with PNP,
a short in the harness
or something else...

Next experiment:
Start it with the key
and take it out of park.
Try all the gear positions.

[BEJinFbk]

BTW - Have you pulled the fuse box apart and
inspected the wiring under the relay socket?

Be sure to disconnect the battery if you do.

Also - Has this car ever been underwater?

[cn90]

Hmmm,

My understanding is that: the PNP switch simply connects the starting circuit. When bad, the PNP causes a no start condition. The PNP is only 1 part of the 3 requiremnts to start the car. To start te car:
- Key in III
- Relay must work so power flows from 30 ---> 87
- PNP works as designed.

The situation in this thread is completely opposite. Starter runs all the time, when key is in II and III.
So my thinking is PNP has nothing to do with this trouble.

MadeinJapan, are you sure you pulled the correct relay marked with "J", standing facing engine, it is the 2nd relay from your L hand?

[MadeInJapan]

Okay- got it...and it was hard to do- I have short leads on my VOM meter...and everyone else here has gone to bed.
Anyway, you were right- there is an 86...and there two center ones- both 87, so I was wrong in my last post.
Anyway, on 86, here is what I got:
Position I- 0V
Position II- 0V
Position III- 10.8~11V

Okay, I would wait for your response, but it is late and I work early.
If the voltage changed on #86, at position III, what does this mean?
I have to go to bed- should have gone an hour ago... I have time after work tomorrow but not before.
Do I still need to get into my ignition switch at this point?

BEJinFbk- I'm not sure what you're getting at- I just tried it and I don't like to do this because the starter continues to be engaged after the engine starts- I know this is not good for it, but it will start in every gear... When it started in reverse it shot the car almost out of the garage- very scary things here. I'm not sure what all of this means. In the past, it would never start unless it was in park or neutral. I just think that something is up with the starter- I have never ever had a problem with the PNP switch on this car. cn90- what do you say??

Okay, really- I have to get to sleep. I have meetings galore in the morning where I'm presenting...got to go.
I await what you guys have to say.

P.S...trying to go to bed but you keep posting (really a good thing and I do appreciate it)...No, never been under water- I have not pulled the box apart but looking under it, I see no corrosion or anything to make me suspect that there is a problem with the box or wiring going up into it. I know that others have had issues like this. And yes, I have the right relay...if not, I would hot have the numbers off of it like I have...It has a white J marked on the top and if you open it, it looks like a bunch of copper wires wrapped around a block- like a regulator of some sort...it IS definitely 2nd from the left, facing the windshield from the front of the car...

Good night guys- will catch up with you tomorrow night!
Thanks for all of your help.
-Dave