1998 V70R Rear Main Seal Leak - questions

[jmailloux]

Hi all,
I have read up on Rear Main Seal leaks a bit, and I am pretty sure that is what I have (I showed pictures to my mechanic as well):
My leak has been slowly developing over months; I now have a about a half of piece of paper (8.5"x11") area of oil each time I park in the garage (bought a drip pan finally). I have 180k miles on this 16 soon to be 17 year old car. I like the R, I have taken really good care of it, it still looks good and everything works on it, etc, and I would like to keep it another year or two at least rather than replacing it now. The leak really is not bad yet, in terms of movement on the dipstick - takes a couple hundred miles to see it drop.

Questions:
1. Does these RMS leaks ever blow out catastrophically, dump the oil quickly, and leave you stranded at the side of the road?
2. Any recommendations on Bar's RMS leak additive, or any other additive that may seal this up a bit for a year or two, or at least slow the leak?
3. My independent (non dealer) Volvo mechanic, good guy, reasonable rates overall, has quoted me about $1,100 to $1,200 to do this seal, and a couple of the seals between the transmission and the angle gear (since he will have it all apart anyway). Doesn't seem like a bad quote for all the work, but is it worth putting that much money into this car, that is maybe worth $2,500?

Happy to hear all opinions or info. Thanks for the help.
Jim

Pictures of leak - coming from small oval opening between transmission casing and engine casing (I cleaned it all up, then drove it for about 10 minutes, and took the picture)

[erikv11]

That's an RMS leak, no doubt.

What is the PCV service history? OCV is presumed to be the #1 cause of RMS leaks.

(1) No, don't think I have ever heard of that. It will get progressively worse, as long as you are doing city driving and watching the dipstick you will be fine. It may get real messy real soon, may not.

(2) the only snake-oil additive for engines I have ever trusted is one called Auto-Rx. Opinions vary widely even on this one no doubt, but here it is: http://www.auto-rx.com/. I think JDS60R had an additive he likes, he knows his stuff maybe he will post up.

(3) $1,100 for the RMS and trans seals on an R (AWD) is a good deal if the mechanic knows Volvos. Make sure he uses Volvo seals if you go this route. Is it worth it? I would think of it this way: if you didn't have a car, would you buy this one with the new seals for $1,100? I probably would if it was my own car, that is dirt cheap for a 98 R in good condition, but you know the maintenance history the best to answer the question. Is there a bunch of routine work will need to be done soon? As long as the valve stem seals are not yet blowing blue smoke I would probably stick with it, sounds like you still really enjoy it.

[JDS60R]

As Erik said -clean or replace the PCV system after checking it for clogging (glove test).

If no excess pressure is being built up then you can try ATP AT-205 reseal.
Please use Matts link above if buying from Amazon -then go to AT-205

I've never seen it totally eliminate a big leak but it sure does slow it down a bunch, unless the seal ripped or cracked - then its done. My thoughts are for $10 is worth the gamble. Just pour it in the oil and let it work for 3 hours run time (does not have to be continuous). I have seen very satisfactory results many times.

example with picture
https://www.amazon.com/AT-205-Re-Seal-St ... B000NVW1LM

[cn90]

1+ to above comments.

1. Fix the PCV first.

2. The last time I had my RMS done (using Volvo seals), it was 10h labor charge and $70/h. It was in 2008.
I paid $700 labor charge for this big job. I normally do all car repair work myself, but this job is big and requires transmission jack etc. So I was glad to have my indy do it.

Now on to the philosophical issue of spending "large amount" in an old car. Let' say:
- You don't work on your car.
- You spend $800-$1,000 on repair bills/year.

When your car is worth $2,000-$3,000, this question comes up all the time. But $2,000-$3,000 is just book value, the car is worth more than that from an engineering standpoint. It is a fine piece of engineering.

Let's say you know the car will last another 5-10 years/another 100K miles...
I see nothing wrong with spending $800-$1,000 on repair bills/year. It may sound weird that in a few years from now, you spend more on repair bill than the car's value, but:
- You drive the car you know, i.e., you know the devil well lol...
- Still better than new car payments.
- To get a decent used car with < 100K miles these days, you may need to spend upward $6,000-$10,000 to get a 2005-2007 Volvo model.

So, if you "think" the car will last another 5-10 years/another 100K miles, spending $800-$1,000/year on repair is perfectly legitimate to me...

Anyway, it is all philosophical in nature...

[JimBee]

cn90: good analysis, makes sense. If we're committed to driving a car, somewhat cost-conscious, have a well-engineered vehicle whose maintenance we're at least somewhat familiar with, there will some yearly cost associated with continuing to own/drive it. Even a 2005 for multiple thousands that might look nice, could be poorly cared for or driven excessively hard, so with any used car, we don't really know what we're getting into, though with help from a savvy team and members of MVS, we can make more judicious decisions.
I agree on finding a Volvo savvy tech. My corner garage has a very knowledgable manager and head mechanic, and their prices are great, but they hardly work on Volvo's and I've had a couple of returns that weren't major gaffes (a/c coupling they worked on that blew apart immediately and O2 sensor plug that wasn't fully plugged in) but still annoying. I don't think I'd go to them for anything major.

[dosbricks]

I am in essentially in the same position as the OP with my '96 wagon w/156K. So Jim, I feel your pain. My car is immaculate, no dents or door dings, no splits in the leather, never wrecked, always garaged and maintained with synthetic oil. All other maintenance is up to date. Needs nothing but a RMS job.

Around town the leak is not too bad, but a 400mi. highway run will coat the tailgate. Underneath is nasty. The problem--like most of us who fall victim to this weak link PCV blowing out the RMS--is that I was not on these boards learning about the PCV issue beforehand. It's hard to do preventative maintenance when you don't know there is a looming disaster ahead because of faulty engineering from Volvo. I'm venting here, but lets just say it's a bite to have the RMS go before any other less costly seal when it could have been prevented. I wonder what percentage of us first learned of PCV clog from a blown seal of some kind, and if a majority replaced the PCV because of prior knowledge of the issue--or after trouble showed up.

I've been looking at 2003 and later V70s for $3-5k and all I find FSBO are way worse than the pics and the maintenance history is mostly unknown. There is also the question of why such car was not traded in--does it have an underlying problem? So buying a vehicle of that sort (with more electronic clap trap that will eventually fail) would mean starting over on repairing much of the stuff that is shot by 100-150k miles. Those costs plus purchase price of a newer wagon equals way more than replacing this RMS. The last car I looked at made me come home and hug my old 855 that has been my reliable companion these past 16 years.

I'm 67 and will tackle most any repair, but not up to an engine/tranny pull. Now if I didn't live at the end of the earth and had access to a knowledgeable Volvo shop, it would be a done deal.

[scot850]

I'm the crazy person that paid the dealer to replace the RMS on my 2000 V70R. If you buy the parts from the dealer and have them install then they should warranty the repair for 2 years parts and labor in North America.

When I did this, I also replaced all the cam seals, Front crank seal and oil pump seal, water pump and timing belt. Also re-sealed the tranny, axle seals and angle gear sleeves and seals.

Even having the dealer do it, the front seal blew in a week again (and yes PCV system has been replaced with OE parts including all pipework). Then the rear angle gear seal blew twice, and then the front tranny seal went again. I had brought the parts in from a US dealer as your prices from the likes of Tasca are half what we pay up here. Labor rate is also $150 CDN/hour. All in it came in around $4300 for parts and labor. Was it worth it? Time will tell, but so much has been done on the car, the sum of the parts is way more than the car value. The way I look at it, if I buy a new car, I loose about 50% value in 3-4 years. For a decent say $30k car, that is $15,000 or $3.5k/year! ( just bought a 2 year old Kia Optima with a 5 year bumper-to-bumper Kia warranty with only 15k miles for just over half the new price!!). As I only do a small mileage every year to me it is madness to buy new, so I keep my old car and if I am putting $2000/year into it then I feel it makes sense. Add to that the careless drivers here constantly dinging my cars in parking lots it doesn't make sense to have a new car.

I don't regret putting the money into the car, but I am not looking at it to sell at a profit or even break even, I'm doing it to keep. Only reason I may sell is it barely get used now (1500 miles this year).

So, bottom line, better the devil you know, and accept the cost of repairs will be higher than a new car, but the car devalues little and if it dies, then not such a big loss. Look at buying used parts for non-critical items (just bought a cabin sensor from pick n'pull for $5).

Everyone has their opinion, but mine would be get it fixed, but check the warranty the repair shop give, as the RMS can be a pain to fit right.

Neil.

[jmailloux]

Hello all,
Thanks for all the great input. I will try to answer a bunch with one post here:

PCV: I knew about the PCV system clogging and potentially causing oil leaks (didn't know about RMS, though). I did most of my own work on the car until family and work got too busy this last year, but I had bought a full PCV replacement kit from IPD last year with the phenolic spacer for the intake manifold, intending to do it all at once. Never got around to it, and my dipstick still showed a bit of negative pressure until about three months ago. I took it in to the dealer to check / diagnosis a vibration and asked about the oil leak. The dealer said then that PCV was probably getting clogged and was about neutral pressure, and that may be contributing to an oil leak. I checked with a tissue over the dipstick and it was pretty neutral; not sucking in and not blowing off. (I also checked the rear camshaft seal and the turbo oil return line, both of which I have done the seals on a few years ago, both dry).

So I don't know that PCV was it. But in any case, I took it to Mike (independent volvo mechanic) and he did the PCV cleaning, replaced all the tubing and breather box under the intake manifold with new, replaced some other random vacuum bits, and put the phenolic spacer in. Great job. So, PCV is fixed, and good. Have a good negative pressure now at dipstick.

Oil leak still continued at about the same rate. My leak sure is not as bad as some you all wrote about: Mine is pretty much only about as far back as halfway down the catalytic converter.

As far as keeping the car: I do like it, but we are finding it somewhat smaller than optimal for big trips now; I do a fair amount of skiing, and even with a roof box, all our ski gear, family of four, sometimes the dog as well, and it gets pretty full, so that is one issue. On the other hand, I agree about the car payments vs. repair payments: $1,200 is about 4 - 5 months of a car payment for a decent maybe 4 - 5 year old replacement car, even with putting a bunch of money down ( I generally only buy used cars - I bought this R as a 2 year old used car). No other repairs are due soon (timing belt in another 30k is the next big thing - three years away for me with my driving) and the maintenance has always been done. Did struts and self leveling shocks last year, steering rack the year before, you get the picture. Synthetic oil, etc.

Anyway, I really appreciate the various ways you all suggested to think about the question of keeping the car or not. Great to have smarter people with the same cars help out, thanks!https://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/forums ... 1&p=344012#

Thanks for the suggestions on the anti leak additives. Sound like that may be an option for a while, and will keep things a little cleaner and delay my decision if I want to delay.

My mechanic is really quite good on Volvos; we talk about his highly modified '99 V70 sedan and all that he has done to it; a lot of it is essentially putting some R like mods on it and then some. If you need a Volvo mechanic in San Diego, I can recommend him.

If I do the repair, I intend to have Mike replace every seal he can get to with OEM while he is in there.

[wjhandy850]

I paid around $900 about a year ago for RMS replacement at a Volvo specialist. It cured the problem, that much is true. What stinks is that they let me leave with the transmission low on fluid. I missed it myself until it developed a whine. Thats the luck I tend to have whenever I let someone else repair my car. Of course they didn't own up to it, and mentioned that they changed seals on the transmission stating that they were leaking to. I suspect they knew they did the damage. I will hope to find a good transmission to replace it soon, but no issues yet and I made through another hot GA summer. My car is in such good shape that I think it is worth it to throw down another $900 to get the transmission put in. That is what you've got to ask yourself.

[cn90]

On the issue of low ATF in the AT.

I went through similar issue: shop replaced RMS, fluid was checked but they were not familiar with Volvo cooler clip (at radiator): they installed the clip backward. It took a few months when the clip let loose (that was how I learned there is a THIN side and THICK side on the clip!) in the middle of freezing rain, dumping all ATF on the highway. I barely crawled to local Target store to get some ATF.

The nice thing about AT is that: when ATF level is low, there is not enough fluid to run the TC, so the trans skips here and there (similar to a car with MT and worn clutch). The internals of the AT will be fine. Once the ATF is added to proper level, the AT will be fine.

So, chances are you will be fine.

PS: I have a rule of thumb...every time the car leaves any shop, I make a check list of things to verify.
Very often I find something not up to par. They are human beings, they make mistakes too...