2004 s60 Won't start, low compression all 5 cylinders

[draser]

The hard starting is due to low compression. I'd test coolant for exhaust gas. Hopefully the block is not warped.

[JudgeRat]

So, it's been a while and there have been some further developments. New mechanics bought the tool to adjust the VVT and managed to get the car to start and run. Would run beautifully after starting, but still had difficulty starting and they couldn't really figure out why. Would have to hold the key in the start position (sometimes for a long time) until she finally caught fully and started running on her own. Still no codes and the gas mileage has not been negatively impacted for the last 8 months. Incidentally, I had to have the water pump replaced after about a month of driving it this way. Finally wouldn't start at all during latest cold snap, though, and I had her towed to yet another shop. New mechanic has done a dry compression test (I know, right? Why not a proper "wet" test?) and noted that compression is low on all cylinders, but not by same amount. Largest difference is on cylinder #4 which is 40% lower than all of the other 4 cylinders. We both suspect that I have bent valve(s) on #4. Neither of us is suspecting rings.

Now it gets interesting. Newest mechanic recommends that I replace the engine with a used engine. Initially, he found one with ~101k miles for $1275 (not including labor) and 30 day warranty. I've questioned the need for a different engine rather than just replacing the head. My rational is that I have maintained this engine meticulously and know it's record, but we have no way of reliably knowing how well this other engine has been maintained. With the issues I've had with this head, though, I don't trust it to be repaired correctly either; I think I got stuck with a defective head when I first got the vehicle and that has been the source of all my issues.

I pushed back on the rational for replacing my engine with another engine that only has ~30k fewer miles than my current engine and only a 30 day warranty rather than replacing the head on my current block. My thought was get another used head and have it reconditioned and mounted but the mechanic is recommending against that approach and is very reluctant to do it. He would agree to mount a remanufactured head however. I've done some research, and a remanufactured head will cost ~$1800 (just the part). When I expressed my concerns to the mechanic, he did another search and found a lower mileage (~58k) used engine for $1475.

So, here's my question: Would it be more prudent to try to put a remanufactured head on my "known quantity" block (which may or may not have hidden lower end damage now due to all the head problems I've had? Or should I go with the used 58k mileage used engine? Which approach do you think gives me the better chance of getting my money's worth, and more importantly, a higher shot of getting another 60k miles out of the vehicle? If I go with the used engine, I would insist that the new water pump be removed from my engine and installed on the replacement engine of course (no sense loosing that new part).

[precopster]

Clearwater Heads will do a fully reconditioned head for around $600 and have been used many times here on this forum.

As far as whether your own block was affected by the head it's very unlikely however when head is removed (about 2 hours of labour) the mechanic can clearly see whether there are open or leaking valves. Also easy to see if there is a wear ridge in the top of the bores which would lower compression. He may go.so far as to remove the pan and remove the piston belonging to the lowest compression number and check its rings by hand.

This would add another 4 hours to the bill however if you really want to keep the motor it would be time well spent.

[JeffHicks]

I've just read through this thread, and I've gotta say - holy crap! There is absolutely NO way that a Volvo 5-cylinder engine should have had the head worked on twice before hitting 120k. That is absurd. Somebody somewhere screwed things up in a big way.

Have you been having Volvo certified techs working on this car, or just "mom & pop shop" types?


Honestly, if I were you, at this point I'd just dump the car. If you were to keep it, I believe your best bet is to have a low-mileage used engine installed, but that's going to run $2k for a car that's only worth (maybe) $3k. Is it worth it?

[JudgeRat]

I've just read through this thread, and I've gotta say - holy crap! There is absolutely NO way that a Volvo 5-cylinder engine should have had the head worked on twice before hitting 120k. That is absurd. Somebody somewhere screwed things up in a big way.

I know, right?! I was thinking it was insane to have to do it even once before 150k.

Have you been having Volvo certified techs working on this car, or just "mom & pop shop" types?

I've done both...first time the head gasket was replaced by certified Volvo mechanics at a dealership (but, remember, they didn't recondition the head - they said because Volvo recommends against it). The reason I've never taken it back to them is because of some other bad experiences I've had with them and the fact that the head gasket blew again in the same way just over a year after they did the work the first time (already out of warranty at that time of course). They either didn't do the work correctly, or they missed a larger issue (or even worse, saw it and didn't tell me). The second time was a machine shop that specializes in foreign vehicles (including Volvos) and they did a minor recondition of the head and certified it and the valves and cams to be good. They apparently screwed up the VVT adjustment though. I didn't have this starting problem until after the machine shop's work was just out of warranty as well (talk about sucky luck with timing). The shop that worked on it the last time and performed the VVT adjustment was a high-end foreign sports car shop that only worked on Volvos occasionally, but really good about being meticulous to troubleshoot it out with me even though they didn't specialize in working on my vehicle. They missed something too, but were at least honest enough upfront to tell me that they couldn't figure it out completely although they could get me back running again for a bit since a proper adjustment on the VVT got us there. Still a hard start, but it would start.

I honestly suspect that what has happened is that I've had a somewhat defective head assembly from the time the vehicle was manufactured and it has gotten progressively worse with time and incomplete/insufficient(/possibly inept) diagnostics. I also suspect that the valves that are likely bent in #4 cylinder are at least partially attributable to the machine shop not adjusting the VVT (and possibly other things) properly when they did their bit.

None of this matters anymore, though, because I am having the current shop replace my engine with a used one from a '05 V70 that has 69k on it (turns out the one with 58k was for parts only since it had a knock). They will move the month old water pump from my engine and put it on the newer one along with a new timing belt. The replacement engine will be fully warrantied for 1 year, parts and labor. I'm thinking, if I get lucky, I should be able to get at least 3 more years out of the car.

[JeffHicks]

None of this matters anymore, though, because I am having the current shop replace my engine with a used one from a '05 V70 that has 69k on it (turns out the one with 58k was for parts only since it had a knock). They will move the month old water pump from my engine and put it on the newer one along with a new timing belt. The replacement engine will be fully warrantied for 1 year, parts and labor. I'm thinking, if I get lucky, I should be able to get at least 3 more years out of the car.

I sure hope this works out for you! Volvos should run forever! My 02 XC70 has 215,000 on it, my 04 V70 has 205,000, and my 99 V70 has 190,000. All are original engines and running strong. I recently sold an 89 240 wagon with about 250,000 on it. The only significant engine work done on any of them is that I recently replaced the head gasket in my 04 V70 (I bought it not running).

Who knows - maybe you'll get another 200,000 miles out of your car!

[JudgeRat]

I sure hope this works out for you! Volvos should run forever! ...Who knows - maybe you'll get another 200,000 miles out of your car!

Well, like the old joke goes: ...and the rabbi said, "From your lips to G*ds ears."

Replacement engine is ordered and on its way. It should be here Friday, or Monday at the latest. I'm hoping that I will be reunited with my car by the end of the month. Crossed fingers.

[chrism]

What if the VVT was hanging up due to dirty oil, plugged up oil passage, faulty VVT solenoid, or anything else like that? It would affect all cylinders equally. (valves not closing until the pistons are half way up the stroke) The engine doesn't start until the valve timing has slipped back to normal, so no fault codes are thrown. Just theorizing/brainstorming here.

[JudgeRat]

What if the VVT was hanging up due to dirty oil, plugged up oil passage, faulty VVT solenoid, or anything else like that? It would affect all cylinders equally. (valves not closing until the pistons are half way up the stroke) The engine doesn't start until the valve timing has slipped back to normal, so no fault codes are thrown. Just theorizing/brainstorming here.

I agree with everything you say, except for the fact that I maintained her meticulously and changed the oil every 3 months or 3 thousand miles, whichever came first and the solenoid itself was checked out when the sports car guys adjusted the VVT the last time she was in the shop. I did suspect the solenoid, but as I understand it, the default is for the VVT to not engage until after the engine reaches a certain RPM. I'll grant you that it could still be the mechanism, however, if the return spring had jammed or broken with the VVT engaged. The mechanic and I talked through that scenario as well as a number of others, including if one or both of the VVT gears had slipped on the cams. I can assure you that I drive mechanics crazy insisting that they run down numerous possibilities before making a decision on a course of action, especially one as impactful as this one.

Unfortunately, it would cost me more labor hours to have them tear apart the head further to find out, and even then I would not be sure that my problem would be completely and satisfactorily resolved. Trust me, I lost a lot of sleep and really struggled with this decision but, at this point, without a garage of my own to do the work myself, it makes more fiscal sense for me to go with the replacement engine since I have a limited budget.

Here's my thinking:

::: everyone but real gearheads and hardcore mathematicians should probably change the channel at this point :::

Yes, it is quite possible that I could have them tear apart the head once again, replace the apparent bent valves issue on #4 cylinder, and even discover/correct whatever it was that caused the valves to get bent. Given that, what do you believe the chances are that I won't be right back in the same position in 6 to 15 months from now based on the history of this head thus far? Being trained in some pretty heavy statistical analysis, I can tell you that it should be an independent probability equation (meaning that past history should not have any bearing on future probability) yielding approximately 82% chance of not having the same issue in that time.

Notice that I said should be. But this is where we move out of theoretical independent probability territory into real-world dependent probability. When there are many different independent probabilities that intersect in some way (like valves, and VVT mechanisms, and pistons, and rings, and injectors, and coolant, and the thermal dynamics of an operating engine, et cetera, and numerous other variables), it is likely some of those probabilities will become dependent upon each other and possibly additive. Now that gets us very close to venturing into chaos theory, which is really heady stuff.

My point is, that basic statistics of independent probability may tell us that it shouldn't happen again in that time period, but real life experience has proved that it can, and, as a matter of fact has. Remember, not only did I have to have the head gasket replaced once by the dealership, but then again by the machine shop within a 15 month timespan, and then had to have the VVT adjusted within 9 months after that. There is admittedly some chance that I have simply had a string of bad luck to not only have randomly had the same (or closely similar) cylinder head related issue a number of times in a row (3 times within the last 3 years), but it is also possible that all three mechanics who performed the work were either completely incompetent or somehow know each other and have been colluding against me. The simpler, and more rational explanation is that there is a fundamental flaw in the head assembly itself that is not easily discernable outside of a laboratory situation.

Why not just replace the head with a remanufactured one then? Well, that would cost $1875 for the part only, but would not include the labor and would not guarantee that I wouldn't have further problems because there is nothing to say that the new head would mate with the block any better than the current one. What if the root fault is not really with the head, but with the block? Or, what if all of the overheating and other stresses that has been inflicted on the block by all of these head problems has damaged it beyond reliability? You see where I'm going?

After driving my self nutso with that sort of calculus (and much, much more), I have concluded that the best course of action is to just cut my losses and take all of those variables out of the equation completely by replacing my engine in its entirety with a lower mileage used engine that is only going to cost me $1675 ($200 less than the head that may not be any more reliable than the engine and would only be warrantied for 30 days). Granted, the labor to replace the engine is at least twice as much more, but the engine will be warrantied for a year.

Does it drive me kind of crazy that I will probably never know what the real fundamental problem was with my original engine? And might it also be somehow beneficial to the greater Volvo owner community or some design engineer to discern the solution to this esoteric conundrum? Absolutely, but I can't really afford to keep chasing that rabbit. It was time to move beyond my natural tendency to want to try to find the answer to an excruciatingly intriguing puzzle regardless of time/cost and quickly solve the more salient problem of having reliable transport once again.

[JudgeRat]

I got "Molly" back this evening!

Shop put in a used B5244S6 2.4L SULEV engine from a 2005 V70 that supposedly had 69k miles at the time it left service. One year warranty. Replaced water pump with the month old one from my original engine. Flushed and filled coolant. Replaced timing belt. Replaced oil and filter.

Fired up flawlessly within milliseconds of the first key hit. Idling smooth as silk in that distinctive Volvo 5 cylinder pattern (placed my hand on the engine cover and closed my eyes to feel it and hear it...intimate-like); it's a thing of beauty. Plugged in my new BlueDriver OBD-II scanner and verified no codes (seriously loving this thing). Watched the graphs for some of the live data: RPM, Throttle Position, Fuel System, MAF, O2, et cetera. All readings nominal. Drove 9.1 miles home (1/2 highway, 1/2 stop and go street) and she performed as well, or better, than she did when I first bought her at 45k back in 2007. So far, so good.

I'm sure I'll run into something in the future that I'll need to depend on the good folks on this forum to help me with, but hopefully not anything as obnoxious as this was. Kudos to all that tried to figure it out with me; it was a truly frustrating time dealing with it over the last 3 years, but this last year was made much more tolerable by having the thoughtful help of the moderators and members to lean on as I worked through it -- thanks to all.