new problem, new topic, same car...

sergitin32 · Post by **sergitin32** » 28 Apr 2007, 03:11

VOLVO 1983 240 DL, automatic trasmition, B21A engine (single carburetor), canada made.

Well i had posted before since i was doing this very extense valve job, everything worked out pretty well, just at the very end i realize the engine is really noisy... dunno if cuz i am in an under ground garage or just missing tightening more some bolts; thats why i tried to do so with the engine warm so they go better... but then:

i put the car in the highest position i could make with the jack and the spare tire below this tool, then i realized i didnt warm the engine, so in this almost 30some degrees position i started the engine!!!! jesus crist!!! the starter got stucked, and wont let go... and the engine wont shut off! put it down the faster i could, then try everything... even took it for a ride to see.. cuz i didnt know what was going on... nothing. I started taking off every cable on the engine, spark plugs etc etc, and the fu... engine still working, like not exploding but certanly rocking and moving... wont stop!!!

then i took the battery cable off... and well, it had to stop some how!
thats how i realized it was the starter engine... got stucked in the fly wheel or the ignition got weird i dunno...

after that crazy moment, i can't make the car go fine... every time i move the key on the ignition to the first step, the starter will start doing the job it was made to do, and wont go off only if i disconect the battery, not even whet the ignition switch is on the position OFF!!!

some one has a clue, i am working my head and the book here and might be getting it appart when even the job give me some free days... but feel really dissapointed, and one more time, i cant say the car is the one to blame, its me, doing what i shouldnt, sorry but i did ingnored cars shouldn't be started at 33 degrees to one side!!!! I SHOULD SUSPECT THAT THOU!

thanx for every little advice leading to the solution, apreciate anything!
have a great summer time!
sergitin

Post by **billofdurham** » 28 Apr 2007, 15:59

You certainly are having trouble with this.

I can only suggest that you remove the starter motor as it sounds as if it is well and truly jammed. Do a bench test on it to see if there is an internal problem causing the starter to work when it should not.

Bill.

sergitin32 · Post by **sergitin32** » 29 Apr 2007, 19:13

As I said before Bill, as soon as i turn the key one step, the starter engage to the engine and start running... and after that theres no way to stop it unless i disconnect the battery... i wonder couldn't as a second cause be the ignition switch? but i guess these dont brake that eassy as the starter?
could it be some conection in the electro-magnet, i think it has one to pull the starter foward and engage it with the engine, am i wrong?
thanx alot for your answer and yes for sure, my next free days are for that, starter off and check the whole electrical conexion for fails...

I am also in the way of making a LAMBDOMETTER, meaning a fuel/air ratio metter gadget... just to make my mind when the car is runnin too lean or too rich, think would be helpfull for the future on air-care, and my economy;-)

take good care and have the best life-time.
sergitin32

Post by **billofdurham** » 30 Apr 2007, 11:23

It is possible that a fault has developed in the ignition switch. However, I think the problem is more likely in the starter motor itself.

Your description of how the starter works is good. Just after the solenoid (electro-magnet) engages the pinion with the flywheel it makes a contact with the lead-in from the battery. It is possible that this is where the problem is.

Have you given the starter motor a good, hard thump with either the handle of a hammer or a block of wood on the motor and hit it with a hammer? Not very technical but sometimes when something jams this does work. Of course, you would still need to find out why it jammed.

I am also in the way of making a LAMBDOMETTER, meaning a fuel/air ratio metter gadget...

I am curious as to how you are making this. Perhaps you could post how you did it when it is finished.

Bill.

sergitin32 · Post by **sergitin32** » 30 Apr 2007, 15:46

http://www.ggimages.com/rx7/afmon.html

http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticle ... onitor.htm

there are some other forums with posters about this gadget as well, for those of you who understand Spanish or just electronics plays:

http://miarroba.com/foros/ver.php?temai ... roid=13129

so, I will keep you guys posted about how did i do it with this...
have fun, take good care.
sergitin32

Post by **billofdurham** » 02 May 2007, 11:51

You understand all that - not the Spanish, the tech talk?

I have a friend at Durham University who is going to translate the Spanish for me. However, she refuses point blank to build the unit. Intellectuals!!

Bill.

sergitin32 · Post by **sergitin32** » 07 May 2007, 02:37

Alright, I just went down the car, trying to get the starter off to make some cold testing at home to check if it was really that, what did I found?

bunch of wires in some of the wiring cornering were totally outta cover and all together shorting the circuit!!! jesus!!! thats why for sure the starter wont stop ever!!!

I will include one pic here to show you guys how did it look!!! its incredible what time and some kinda bad design for the 80's can do!!!

Anyway, is there any way I can just get a new wiring kit for this 1983 240 canadian volvo? some one in canada... I wil start looking tomorrow...

At the moment I will do some electrical work with tape and rubber to keep them away each other... have a nice day you all guys there!

bill if you've got any nice electrical diagram from some other manual but haynes, meaning bentley or other, could you please send it to me, haynes i find kinda complikated... also i am sure my car should be the contact breaker type ignition system... but no where in haynes makes it completly clear, so i dunno if i am missing some other electric unit or something and just looking to the wrong diagram... thou i think i am fine... mine would be the simplest ever (distributor, condenser, coil and battery)

thanx for reading and helping.
sergitin32

Post by **billofdurham** » 07 May 2007, 11:48

Sergio, like me if you didn't have bad luck you would have no luck at all!!

Your car should have the good old fashioned contact breaker ignition. I have spent many hours trying to get the setting just right, but at least you have some control over the ignition instead of relying on a computer.

Some pics from my old Haynes manual for those members who don't remember this type of distributor. The B20A and B21A had the same distributor.

What exactly are you looking for in the wiring diagram? All I have are the old Haynes and another that does not know that Volvo made your car. It is for the US models with electronic ignition and only mentions the 2.3 engine. My 240 was the same engine as yours.

Bill.

sergitin32 · Post by **sergitin32** » 14 May 2007, 21:19

I just discovered the engine wirning harness totally uncovered in some places and there are some wires just short circuiting... this leads me to ask for a simple electric diagram for this part...

the only one showing this, and i know i can use it but gets truelly
compliated to a fully amateur as me, is the one with the whole car
electrical circuits on Haynes.

the harness as i think its the bunch of cables mainly engaged with the
battery, alternator, condenser and coil... well and of course the
ignition switch... passing some of them through the fuses... what i need
would be some like a reduced diagram i would like to take a look so i
can do things with a clear mind.

also, i tried online looking for parts, so i can buy a new engine
harness but all i can get is the j-tronic and newer, not these old
ones... hopefuly once i find these they would be much cheaper since
they much simpler, but you never know, dealers are spensive... the
j-tronic stuff was almost 400 usd... meaning almost 450 canadian...
too much for my budget.

So , thats it... and about bad luck... when i accidentally
forced my car into this problem and later i discovered this i realized
is actually good luck i found now and not in the side of some road
abroad from home... the electricity system in these old volvos is not
good after long time as the rest of the engine, lets face it... bunch of wires exposing the cupper and making all kinda conections, sparks and short circuit to the whole electric system is something totally crazy...

hopefulle i will find the way to sort this out... a new harness would
be great!!!!! so if some one out there has a tip where i can find one
cheap and new or sorta i would apreciate lots.
thanx alots for your help again bill...
good luck...
keep loving VOLVO
sergitin32

PD: just yesterday i got a more clear view of the problem and seams to be endless... every wire is off the cover... and inside some other parts of the engine i would need to tear appart to get the harrness of put tape!!! crazy. i can bealy show you in this pic, but more than less the tan color is the cupper without cover.

http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... ed2bv5.jpg
http://img263.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... ed1pn2.jpg

second pic outta focus are wires coming from the alternator.. only the thick red one is fine, the other two are plealed.
first pic is all the wires together, mostly all coming from the ignition switch and the one of the seocn pic... all pealed.
right on! time to work it out!
good luck.
keep those volvos going!
sergitin32

waynej · Post by **waynej** » 25 May 2007, 22:09

this is a fairly common problem on 240's and dealers used to stock the new wiring harness, don't know if they still do. Don try a used one or you may still get the same problem again. You are very lucky, many people have had the starter engage at high RPM and they got to buy a new starter and ring gear, which meant removing the transmission.