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Two Sensors Die at Once? 98 v70 T5

Help, Advice and DIY Tutorials on Volvo's P80 platform cars -- Volvo's 1990s "bread and butter" cars -- powered by the ubiquitous and durable Volvo inline 5-cylinder engine.

1992 - 1997 850, including 850 R, 850 T-5R, 850 T-5, 850 GLT
1997 - 2000 S70, S70 AWD
1997 - 2000 V70, V70 AWD
1997 - 2000 V70-XC
1997 - 2004 C70

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mrbrian200
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Re: Two Sensors Die at Once? 98 V70 T5

Post by mrbrian200 »

abscate wrote: 10 Jul 2017, 04:45 You really still haven't ruled out a simple vacuum leak, and poor running throwing spurious codes.
True. A Vacuum leak could exist. However I wouldn't normally expect a TPS DTC result from a vacuum leak on these older ECUs. Older cars the ECU lacks the sophistication of newer management platforms and will generally only spit out a sensor DTC when signal falls outside it's normal operating range, such as an open or short. Or an O2 sensor that fails to reach nominal voltage output after a specified amount of time. Back then when an ECU spit a code for a specific sensor it usually meant the sensor or the wiring/VREF is indeed bad.

Newer ECUs after around Y2K became vastly more sophisticated in that they will catch when a sensor reading is 'a little off' for specific driving conditions, and thus a sensor DTC is not necessarily an indication of a faulty sensor, but more of a diagnostic aid in tracing problems which quite often are somewhere else. Bosch was a little ahead of everyone else at that time and this applies to their ECUs going back several more years.

EMS2000, also Siemens product newer than this on a friends' 2000 S40 I looked at a couple months back did *not* catch a bad ECT that was reading -40C when ambient was +25C and a failed TPS whose output was stuck at 0%... but not an open circuit. Bosch and/or anything newer would have caught these for certain.

So... I'm very confident DTCs for these two (TPS & MAP) indicates no or our of range (impossible) signal. I wasn't confident about the brake fluid business, I worded that post as such with a question mark. As I believe the TPS outputs a higher voltage with throttle opening, the sensor signal had fooled ECU into metering gas like crazy (as if WOT) either the ECU VREF internal voltage regulator which is probably supposed to output regulated +5v has failed and sending higher voltage or the violet wire(s) are shorted to +B somewhere in the harness.

As the problem is intermittent, if its running fine and says +5v when he checks it under the hood he'll want to tap one of these violet wires at one of these two sensors with a temporary wire back to a voltmeter in the cabin and watch what it does when the car eventually acts up again.

Edit: It also occurred to me, if the MAP is a piezo resistive element (likely) it may have physically degraded internally shorting VREF to ground and/or it's output to VREF. As this would interfere with 2 sensors at the same time the ECU can't cope/goes haywire. This was the case with that 2000 S40 with 2 bad sensors ECT and TPS: racing idle @ 3000 rpm. Friend discovered on his own if he unplugged the IAC the idle would return to normal. He tried replacing the IAC. When that didn't work and his scan tool showing no DTCs he asked me to come over with the VIDA.

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sleddriver
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Post by sleddriver »

mrbrian200 wrote: 10 Jul 2017, 01:36 I reread this whole thread and decided this sounds more like a wiring or ECU problem. DTCs for 2 sensors, intermittent. So I looked up the schematic.

Fenix engine management correct? ...Fenix uses a MAP, Motronic uses a MAF from what I see. You are getting a DTC for MAP/baro and TPS.

1998 V70 with Fenix management, TPS and MAP share a reference voltage on a violet wire.
Wait, wait, wait.

My 98 V70 T5 does not use Fenix. It uses Motronic. Given both are USA cars, why would the OP's 98 use Fenix?? I'd suggest you verify this with the OP before proceeding......
1998 V70 T5 226,808 miles. Original Owner.
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erikv11
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Post by erikv11 »

Yes OP's 98 V70 is m4.4, no question.
'95 854 T-5R, Motronic 4.4, 185k
'98 V70, T5 tune-injectors-turbo, LPT engine, 304k, daily driver
'06 S60 R, 197k
'07 XC70, black, 205k
'07 XC70, willow green, 212k
'99 Camry V6 :shock: 153k
gone: '96 NA 850 210k, '98 NA V70 182k, '98 S70 NA 225k, '96 855 NA 169k

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WagonLagan
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Post by WagonLagan »

sleddriver wrote: 09 Jul 2017, 21:05 With your foot off the gas and on the brake at idle, the Motronic system is in closed loop mode and the idle control motor is in charge of regulating idle speed. Any leak there will cause havoc.
This sounds likely, as this is precisely the time frame that I see the issue occur. After I accelerate it generally goes away in 5 seconds or less. Interestingly, holding brake AND giving it gas (tried this to see if it makes the shuddering stop), does not make it reliably stop.
sleddriver wrote: 09 Jul 2017, 21:05 I'd pull the idle air control motor, thoroughly clean it out with throttle body cleaner, then clean the throttle body itself. Next check all vacuum connections right at the intake manifold. There's about 4 or 5. Pull the vacuum tree and inspect the gasket. Be sure the tree isn't cracked nor are the "branch" caps rock hard. They'll leak.
I will try this today. Surely some of my vacuum hoses are pretty RIP at this point, so I wouldn't be surprised if one failed. It's always hard for me to convince myself a little rubber hose can cause all this, lol. I already cleaned the throttle body, but it's been a couple years since I cleaned the IAC. Guessing a bad IAC could be a culprit as well?
sleddriver wrote: 09 Jul 2017, 21:05 Smoke is the easiest way to find vacuum leaks. I built a simple smoker from a new paint can, fireworks punks, an old aquarium pump & some tubing.
Well, I'm not MacGyver :D , but I'll try to find a way to make one, lol.

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WagonLagan
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Post by WagonLagan »

mrbrian200 wrote: 10 Jul 2017, 17:40 So... I'm very confident DTCs for these two (TPS & MAP) indicates no or our of range (impossible) signal. I wasn't confident about the brake fluid business, I worded that post as such with a question mark. As I believe the TPS outputs a higher voltage with throttle opening...
brian, I massively appreciate you taking the time to brainstorm and dig in here to find the solution.

I hope for my sake you're wrong, because I have ZER0 clue when it comes to electrical systems. I can tell when a fuse is bad, and almost know how to use a voltmeter, that's about it. lol :?

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mrbrian200
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Post by mrbrian200 »

Actually, rather than a harness or ECU problem, the more likely scenario playing out here is that the MAP sensor is shorting internally and taking out the TPS because the VREF on the violet wire is shared between the two. You tried replacing the TPS, the DTC/malfunction for it is technically a 'symptom'. I believe you mentioned the MAP DTC at one point said 'signal high' which would be consistent with VREF shorting to sensor output.

I seem to enjoy wrapping my head around complex/funky problems. I don't always get it on the first try, but I will eventually figure it out.

jblackburn
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Post by jblackburn »

Could be the cable to the fuse box. It's happened before, it might be happening again.

The atmospheric sensor on a 98 is right in front of the fill hole for the windshield washer fluid tank. It does next to nothing on a 98.

Unplug it and leave it unplugged and see if the car acts up.
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WagonLagan
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Post by WagonLagan »

jblackburn wrote: 12 Jul 2017, 11:26 Could be the cable to the fuse box. It's happened before, it might be happening again.

The atmospheric sensor on a 98 is right in front of the fill hole for the windshield washer fluid tank. It does next to nothing on a 98.

Unplug it and leave it unplugged and see if the car acts up.
Wouldn't unplugging it cause the same issues as if it was malfunctioning? I did clean it to no benefit.

In other news: I built a smoker, and am waiting for the caulk to dry to give it a try.

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erikv11
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Post by erikv11 »

mrbrian200 wrote: 12 Jul 2017, 10:34 Actually, rather than a harness or ECU problem, the more likely scenario playing out here is that the MAP sensor is shorting internally and taking out the TPS because the VREF on the violet wire is shared between the two. You tried replacing the TPS, the DTC/malfunction for it is technically a 'symptom'. I believe you mentioned the MAP DTC at one point said 'signal high' which would be consistent with VREF shorting to sensor output.

I seem to enjoy wrapping my head around complex/funky problems. I don't always get it on the first try, but I will eventually figure it out.
I think you missed a key point - a 98 V70 runs on motronic (m4.4) not fenix engine management, so check again because likely there is no shared violet wire.
'95 854 T-5R, Motronic 4.4, 185k
'98 V70, T5 tune-injectors-turbo, LPT engine, 304k, daily driver
'06 S60 R, 197k
'07 XC70, black, 205k
'07 XC70, willow green, 212k
'99 Camry V6 :shock: 153k
gone: '96 NA 850 210k, '98 NA V70 182k, '98 S70 NA 225k, '96 855 NA 169k

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erikv11
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Post by erikv11 »

WagonLagan wrote: 12 Jul 2017, 11:59
jblackburn wrote: 12 Jul 2017, 11:26 Could be the cable to the fuse box. It's happened before, it might be happening again.

The atmospheric sensor on a 98 is right in front of the fill hole for the windshield washer fluid tank. It does next to nothing on a 98.

Unplug it and leave it unplugged and see if the car acts up.
Wouldn't unplugging it cause the same issues as if it was malfunctioning? I did clean it to no benefit.

In other news: I built a smoker, and am waiting for the caulk to dry to give it a try.
Unplugging it can set a code, but basically will do nothing else unless you are driving from the high rockies to the Gulf of Mexico in one (fast-moving) day. I've done it before when trying to cure stray baro code - it didn't affect driving at all.
'95 854 T-5R, Motronic 4.4, 185k
'98 V70, T5 tune-injectors-turbo, LPT engine, 304k, daily driver
'06 S60 R, 197k
'07 XC70, black, 205k
'07 XC70, willow green, 212k
'99 Camry V6 :shock: 153k
gone: '96 NA 850 210k, '98 NA V70 182k, '98 S70 NA 225k, '96 855 NA 169k

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