Need some guru-speek on a strange find.

andromedus · Post by **andromedus** » 05 Dec 2020, 20:20

I have a lead on a New England unicorn, but I think it needs open heart surgery to save it from going to the unicorn glue factory... It's a 1999 V70 XC AWD with the 2.5T. Around 200k, so 10k a year, and the dude said $500. It's also originally from Santa Cruz, CA, and despite being parked in his side yard for a few years (sticker says 18/19), the entire interior (except drivers seat) and underside are in incredibly good shape. Like... really good.

So here's the rub -

the seller got it from someone who came here to Maine to work for him. he stated it was "running like crap and leaking coolant all over the place." at least he said something like that at first... he said a bunch of different stuff. I think he was just trying to remember what he was told by the P.O., and remembering bits of his own experience and mixing the two... anyway, he said to get it back to his place from around 15-20 miles away, he had to pull over a ton of times and went through 2 gallons of coolant to get it back from the last mechanic he saw. "you're probably going to just need to put a new motor in it" was another thing he said, but I dunno... given what I was able to check out:

so he mentioned the coolant "leak".... I was able to jump it. it ran rough at first. 1 or 2 cylinders were stubborn. sounded like old plugs getting warmed up/clean for about 30 seconds... then, smooth. like friggin' BUTTER. no joke... revved right, clean up and down, and idled perfectly... shut it down after a few soft revvs. I then topped off the coolant reservoir, and restarted it. sure enough... I watched as the reservoir bubbled intermittently, and each time, the coolant went down about 1/8 inch. this happened about every 3 seconds... so, after a minute, 20/8ths... or 2.5 inches. this thing is DRINKING coolant, and running smooth as anything... weird. I shut it down when it got to temp. i could smell the smell of burning/steaming coolant, but from above with my lamp, could not see any "coolant leaking all over the place"

here's where it gets really weird: I repeated that process, and after seeing the reservoir start to empty again, I got down with my headlamp and tried my best to see if there was a gusher underneath. I saw nothing but the runoff from the wet snow in the cowel dripping down there... no coolant. furthermore, it was 32 out... and the engine was at temp. if there was a coolant leak, the second time there not only would have been liquid, but likely a big steaming cloud coming from the engine bay. nothing. just sipping the coolant... and runnin' smooth.

what the f#@!?

so then... I pulled the oil dipstick. rut-rohhhhhh.... the oil was the color of orange juice concentrate! i had my first clue. I'm almost 100% certain that that amount of moisture mixed into this oil was not just condensate from sitting for so long... it was water/coolant. it wasn't super duper thick yet though... it still had the consistency of motor oil.

so I shut it back down and started to think. while doing so, I continued to look around with the lamp, trying to find any leaks or pools of coolant on the lower shield... nothing. however, when I was tracing coolant lines, I did discover... a turbo hiding in back! i should have recognized the tube for the turbo>intake running over the head, but I was in another mode. I also noticed this turbo was dirty. very dirty. very VERY dirty. I also remembered then that when I had it running, and I revved the engine... I heard no turbo. 0 spooling. it sounded N/A to me.

so... I have a bunch of coolant in the oil, oil leaking out of the turbo, which doesn't seem to spool, and coolant getting sucked up seemingly by some internal process. (i didn't think about an exhaust cloud, but I also figured it was 32, 100% humidity, and this thing hadnt run in years... so the exhaust wasnt the best place to start, regarding possible diagnosis)

my mind starts moving toward what may have been a crappy, recently seized turbo (he said it was "running like crap" on that drive back, but it wasn't right then while it was cool<>at temp, and not being pushed... a failing turbo may explain why it was running like crap under load, but fine at idle.)

as far as the turbo being the point of fluid crossover/antifreeze consumption, i also read somewhere that coolant getting into the oil return in the turbo was possible, but rare. it was also mentioned somewhere that if one of these td04s seizes, if it does so in just the right position, that is exactly what ensues: coolant going straight into the crankcase from the turbo drain. i wonder about the voracity of these claims, but may be beginning to believe...

So... To check about fluid crossover in the other direction, I looked in the reservoir again, and as best as I could tell... there was no oil mixing into the coolant system. I'm pretty sure that if there was a failure of other close fluid passage spots: oil cooler, head gasket etc... that there would be some, but there wasn't.

I told them I'm coming back on tuesday to jump it again, and drive it the 1/10th of a mile to my house... I literally could do it without coolant if I wanted to, it's that close. (but I'll top it off.) I'll get it up on ramps and see what I can see again...

I'm going to do the "idling at temp reservoir bleed test" to see if there is combustion pressure getting into the cooling system when I bring it to my house. I'll also be pulling the turbo oil drain and inspecting it for signs of coolant... I think these two steps will yield actionable info:

gasses in coolant, no coolant in drain: head gasket
no gasses in coolant, oil in drain: turbo
neither: continue search for AF consumption elsewhere

All this info, plus the fact that I have a complete Mitsubishi turbo setup from a 93 940 just laying around... and am capable of doing a head gasket job (did one on my B230F last year at 611k. she loved it. big confidence builder...) makes me seriously consider this to be, for my situation, a REALLY good opportunity.

Hell, even If I just parted it out I'd be able to make money off of it... So I may get it either way. The real question is can I save it, because that's what I really want to do. Restored, this thing will be a great car for years to come.

So what do the gurus think? Have any other diagnostic advice given what I've shared? Are there any obvious checks I'm missing? Is what I've already done way off?

If this is is a real opportunity, I'd like to take advantage. I read about finds like these all the time, but they never happen to me.

I want to perform the correct surgery, not bring her to the glue factory... but most importantly, and firstly and formostliestly, I want to know what you all think. Any help is most definitely appreciated.

CHEERS!
-A

yanga001 · Post by **yanga001** » 05 Dec 2020, 21:18

Not too much on the diagnostic advice (brain isnt all there right now), but if you are thinking of throwing a different turbo on it then you might need to get it tuned by a professional, unless you want to put countless hours into learning ME7 tuning and mapping out your bin. You will need VIDA to properly see what the engine is telling you which is not too bad to install, but its another factor to consider for diagnostics. I went through the same thing after finding a perfect interior 99 2.3T S70 but it had locked brakes. That was 2 years ago and im still trying to find the time to fix it (had to remove and adjust the parking brake as it seized shut at one point). Do a compression test to see how good the engine is. These things will run through anything, my old v70 over heated once to the point the engine shut off due to frozen coolant. That thing still ran another 100k km before its incident. It burned a good amount of oil but was smooth as butter.

Anyways, if you really want to fix it, you will need all the tools that come with the 99's.

Post by **FLXC90** » 05 Dec 2020, 22:33

lean towards head gasket by behavior. Turbo may also be shot, but they are relatively, dime-a-dozen. As you said, do it right, drive it for a few years, safe comfortable all-season car. Look at some of the crusty stuff that is being saved/kept alive here and you'll be encouraged.

Post by **erikv11** » 05 Dec 2020, 23:26

The turbo will never spool up with the car sitting in the driveway. The car must be moving.

Also the turbo is pretty unlikely to be the site of the oil/coolant mixing.

Sounds like it could be fun to fix up! Keep in mind 99 is something of a mixed year and has quirks, it's the first year of ME7 engine management on the P80 platform.

Post by **abscate** » 06 Dec 2020, 03:05

It will likely need $1500 in work and parts to become a runner worth $1500 at sale.

I had 30 hours into my 1998 field save and lots of parts from parts cars used.

Head gasket is the likely mixing point, turbos are $100 on flea-bay

andromedus · Post by **andromedus** » 06 Dec 2020, 06:36

Ok... I have the exact same turbo setup already. TD04 13T Mitsu... So a swap would need 0 remapping.

Everything I've seen says otherwise about the head gasket... But since I can do the job either way, so I just may bite. I'll update after the bleed test I do

Even if I did drop $1500 into it, which I wont swapping an identical turbo myself... I wouldn't sell. If fixing, keeping.

After all the nursing of my 620k B230F (still going strong), I am unintimidated.

I'm going to put pics up on tuesday when I get it in the bay.

...even an engine swap wouldn't be unfeasable, or the end of the world... I'm just hopeful I can save it.

andromedus · Post by **andromedus** » 06 Dec 2020, 06:50

erikv11 wrote: ↑05 Dec 2020, 23:26 The turbo will never spool up with the car sitting in the driveway. The car must be moving.

Also the turbo is pretty unlikely to be the site of the oil/coolant mixing.

Sounds like it could be fun to fix up! Keep in mind 99 is something of a mixed year and has quirks, it's the first year of ME7 engine management on the P80 platform.

Ok... So i'll listen for turbo spool on the short drive over on tuesday. I'm used to my old 94 Ford F250 7.3 IDI turbodiesel. That thing spooled with every revving, no special conditions. Does engine management system work with gear selection sensors to only let it spool in gear? Just curious... I'll read up on the ME7.

Your statement gives me pause: "pretty unlikely" does not mean "impossible"... Which to me also means you may know of the conditions that need to happen internally to that TD04 to make it possible, however unlikely it is.
Is this the case? If you do know how that might occur, I would greatly appreciate a description of how it might happen before tuesday so I can check for signs when I pull that turbo... I'm decent at diagnosis, but I want to be sure I don't miss anything.

andromedus · Post by **andromedus** » 06 Dec 2020, 06:54

yanga001 wrote: ↑05 Dec 2020, 21:18 Not too much on the diagnostic advice (brain isnt all there right now), but if you are thinking of throwing a different turbo on it then you might need to get it tuned by a professional, unless you want to put countless hours into learning ME7 tuning and mapping out your bin. You will need VIDA to properly see what the engine is telling you which is not too bad to install, but its another factor to consider for diagnostics. I went through the same thing after finding a perfect interior 99 2.3T S70 but it had locked brakes. That was 2 years ago and im still trying to find the time to fix it (had to remove and adjust the parking brake as it seized shut at one point). Do a compression test to see how good the engine is. These things will run through anything, my old v70 over heated once to the point the engine shut off due to frozen coolant. That thing still ran another 100k km before its incident. It burned a good amount of oil but was smooth as butter.

Anyways, if you really want to fix it, you will need all the tools that come with the 99's.

I've seen the tools necessary to keep the cams in order while doing the head, and am fully prepared to fabricate my own. Even with that being the case, is there a list of '99 tools somewhere?

Post by **abscate** » 06 Dec 2020, 07:21

Coolant in oil

Cylinder head and gasket (have to do both)
Oil cooler (rare on RN 1999- engines)
Cracked piston liner
Cracked block

Fooling with the turbo is a waste of time, statistically

At 200k the cylinder head job will run 600-900 in parts

get a copy of VIDA up and running and check the ETM sensors for operation and synch - the electronic throttle body on the 1999 has a 150k MTBF and costs $500 to fix

You need a cam lock tool for the 1999 with variable cam timing but that can be fabbed

Post by **erikv11** » 06 Dec 2020, 10:09

andromedus wrote: ↑06 Dec 2020, 06:50 ... Your statement gives me pause: "pretty unlikely" does not mean "impossible"... Which to me also means you may know of the conditions that need to happen internally to that TD04 to make it possible, however unlikely it is.
Is this the case? If you do know how that might occur, I would greatly appreciate a description of how it might happen before tuesday so I can check for signs when I pull that turbo... I'm decent at diagnosis, but I want to be sure I don't miss anything.

From Ozark Lee (https://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/forum ... 4&start=10):

"In order for oil and coolant to mix in the turbo there would need to be an actual crack in the in the turbo housing. The two systems are isolated by the casting itself and not by seals or O rings. It is not a common problem but it can happen."