850 NA engine shot, what should I do?

Post by **findude** » 05 Oct 2009, 19:53

I’m looking at rebuilding or replacing my engine. I’m not 100% sure I would do an engine R&R myself, but let’s suppose for this exercise that I will. I’ll also replace the clutch while I’m in there.

Assumption: I’m going to keep this car. It has a known history from new, I like the way it’s optioned, and I don’t fit in an 850 that has a sunroof. The common-sense advice to get a better 850 and sell this one will not get me to my goal. (Mine is the only well-optioned 850 I’ve ever seen without a sunroof.) Despite the engine issue, the car only has 100,000 miles on it and is otherwise in excellent condition.

I can buy a “used” engine for $500-1200. As far as I’m concerned this is a pig in a poke since I can’t run a compression test or run OBD diagnostics on the engine before buying it.

I can buy a remanufactured engine from the Volvo dealer for about $6,000.

I can get my engine rebuilt by a local machine shop that does a lot of Volvo work. This will cost “about $2,000” but might run as high as $3,500 depending on what the machinist finds upon opening my engine up. I don’t think it’s too bad because the engine still runs fine—it just smokes like crazy. This is a reputable, local machine shop, but he’ll only give me a 30-day warranty.

I can buy a donor car—a running 850 where I can test the engine, swap that engine into my car, keep the extra parts I want and part out the rest. I’ll have to wait and be ready to pounce, but stuff comes up on craigslist that might work out. Ideally I’ll find a nice 850 that had a tree limb fall on it, got rear-ended, or has a bad transmission (I’ll keep my manual transmission so I don’t need the auto from a donor car to work). This will likely cost less than rebuilding my engine. How easy is it to get rid of the leftovers when I’m done? I live in a suburban cul-de-sac, so whatever’s left will have to go when the project is done. Will a junkyard/recycler charge me to haul it away, or will they pay me by the pound? How does this usually work?

If I find a donor car that is a turbo, can I do a complete transplant? Assume I have the two cars side by side in my garage. I’ll have all the turbo parts I need. I think I can mount my manual transmission onto it as a straight bolt-on proposition. However, I don’t know if my car, with a “55” VIN will pass emissions inspection with the “wrong” engine in it. It’d be nice to have a turbo, but I’ve happily driven the car 100,000 miles in factory NA form.

Let me know your opinions.

Post by **Ozark Lee** » 05 Oct 2009, 20:26

That is a tough call. Obviously, at least to me, the rebuilt motor from the dealer is out of the question. Rebuilding what you have can make sense but I think only if you do it yourself - handing it over to a machine shop without a firm quote (which I understand that they can't do until they get there) seems dangerous to the wallet.

The good running $300.00-$500.00 wreck makes the most sense so long as your neighbors aren't going to have a fit. You can swap a turbo in but it takes a ton of work, all of the engine wiring harnesses and the ECU's will need to swap over as does the CAT - I don't think the N/A downpipe and cat will mate up with the outlet on the turbo. The radiator will need to swap over as well for the oil cooler lines. Mating the turbo with a stick will also result in a perpetual CEL since it won't be able to talk to the TCU as it is factory programmed to do.

We don't play the smog test game around my parts but it is my understanding that, in most places where they have such lunacy, you cannot pass if the CEL is on. There are European versions of the ECU where the turbo and a stick were factory married but they are rare when they come up and they are expensive.

I doubt that the normal inspection rube would know VIN 55 engine or a VIN 57 engine from a small block Chevy - I think that all they want to know is where the OBD-II port is.

...Lee

Post by **Matty Moo** » 05 Oct 2009, 22:38

Out of curiousity, do you know why your engine is smoking? What kind of smoke is it? White, blue, black?

100k is low mileage. Too low for the engine to be shot or burning a ton of oil, especially when you know the history on it.

could be a few different things, hate to see you spend huge money to replace or rebuild the engine when it could be a head gasket, valve seals, etc.

Post by **matthew1** » 06 Oct 2009, 00:32

[For posterity's sake, here is the "part 1" of findude's story.] This thread that you are currently reading is part 2.

findude wrote:I’m looking at rebuilding or replacing my engine.

That's really bad news. I hope it turns out well whatever happens. (Are you sure the current one is toast?)

findude wrote:Assumption: I’m going to keep this car. It has a known history from new, I like the way it’s optioned, and I don’t fit in an 850 that has a sunroof.

I must be a touch shorter than you: I can't wear a hat while driving mine (which has a sunroof).

findude wrote:I can buy a “used” engine for $500-1200. As far as I’m concerned this is a pig in a poke since I can’t run a compression test or run OBD diagnostics on the engine before buying it.

I'd do this. These engines are usually good at any mileage. Strongest part of the car, despite your current condition. Sorry, didn't mean to rub it in.

findude wrote:I can buy a remanufactured engine from the Volvo dealer for about $6,000.

findude wrote:I can buy a donor car—a running 850 where I can test the engine, swap that engine into my car, keep the extra parts I want and part out the rest.

This would be my second option.

findude wrote:If I find a donor car that is a turbo, can I do a complete transplant?

Can't help with the technicals of this, but a turbo manual was every (non US market) 850 owners' dream.

Post by **findude** » 06 Oct 2009, 05:10

I'm pretty sure the engine is shot. Have a look at this thread: https://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/forums ... =1&t=23329. I'm planning to do the SeaFoam and heavier oil treatment to see what happens.

The car uses a lot of oil (I'm at about 1 quart per 500 miles) and has bad compression in the #4 cylinder. There is absolutely no oil leak of any kind anywhere. I know this from a clean garage floor and from getting under the car and doing a visual inspection. The car smokes, especially after idling at a stop light.

That said, I do believe I have an O2 sensor problem as well and that it is running rich in addition to burning oil.

Two mechanics, an independent and a Volvo dealer, also told me that the car has bad rings. I was careful not to ask a leading question--I just told them that it smoked a lot, especially after idling for a while. I'm pretty much just accepting that my engine is the exception that makes the rule. They both explicitly stated there was no PCV problem, and the whole "oil trap" service was done at 88,000 miles.

The car has been subjected to sub-optimal use for the last several years. Mostly this is very short trips that add up to less than 4,000 miles a year. To put it in perspective, while I managed to get almost 33 miles a gallon at an average speed of 60 mph on a 300-mile road trip last weekend, the trip computer usually shows an average mpg of 21 and an average speed of 19 mph. My trip computer has always been dead on for hand-calculated mpg, so I believe it.

Craigd2599 · Post by **Craigd2599** » 06 Oct 2009, 06:07

This is information you left out of your other thread. I would DEFINITELY do the seafoam treatment but use GM Top Engine cleaner because it's stronger...and I have used it with good results. This sounds like a valve seal issue maybe. Valve seals will load up at idle. That sort of driving will gunk up a head pretty badly. I think you may very well find good results with blowing out the junk and seeing what that yields

Post by **charlyW** » 06 Oct 2009, 09:16

To me those Compression figures say either its a case of the head gasket is on the way or the piston rings are worn but no way is the engine shot.

A shot engine I would expect compression figures in the low 100's and not still in the 200's. If it were me I'd take the head off drop the oil and see how much movement you have in the pistons at TDC one by one if theres 0.5 to 2mm then the rings are on the way out if its the movement is greater with clunking/clicking then piston rings have had it.

I rebuild luxury classic car engines for a living and in no way would I scrap that engine its only going to cost your a few hundred to fix and maybe a weekend to remove the engine then strip it out and a week or so to rebuild it depends on how much time you can spare.

Hone the bores till you get a nice X pattern

Check the crank is straight

Make sure the pistons are clean especially where the rings sit there must be no gloop.

Make sure if you rebuild the engine you are very very generous with the oil can[dont be afraid of using half a gallon of oil on rebuild. On a rebuild of a Rolls engine I would anticipate in using a UK gallon which is 4.54 litres] 90% of engine failure can be traced back to original lubrication on rebuild. [for information we have a 1964 Aston Martin in the shop that came in with some serious engine noise following a cheap rebuild and we have traced it back to lack of lubrication on build]

Make sure ALL oilways are free and clear the smallest bit of carbon will destroy the bearings.

I would also say the PCV is blocked somewhere namely that pipe coming from the base of the block going into the bottom of the seperator canister.

Post by **findude** » 06 Oct 2009, 12:29

OK, I tried the SeaFoam since that was what I bought the other day. I put a third of it in the crank and drove the car for about 15 minutes. Then I put about another third into the intake by sucking it from a glass jar using one of the vacuum hoses from the tree. I did this very slowly and did not stall the engine. It started smoking prodigiously before I was half done. Plenty of smoke came out the exhaust pipe, but some of the smoke was coming up from between the engine and the firewall. Does this mean I have an exhaust leak or is something else going on? Between the breeze and the engine fan, I was unable to pinpoint where the smoke was coming from.

After that I poured the remainder in the gas tank and let the car sit for 10 minutes.

Then I did the famous Italian tune-up. I went for a very spirited 20-minute drive, revving the engine nearly to red line several times and generally driving it hard. I think the car runs better, so I guess I'm a SeaForm believer now.

BUT, the car still smokes after idling so my problem is not solved.

FCPEURO · Post by **FCPEURO** » 06 Oct 2009, 12:56

If I were you, I would find a good running 850 non-turbo donor car. Pull the engine and replace all the seals and such then drop it into your 850. Once you are finished with the donor 850, donate it to the red cross. They will pick it up for free and you can write off the car on your taxes as a donation.

When my 240 died, I parted the car out and donated what was left. Made good money on the parts and wrote the car off at the end of the year.

Post by **jtp** » 06 Oct 2009, 13:09

Ozark Lee wrote: We don't play the smog test game around my parts but it is my understanding that, in most places where they have such lunacy, you cannot pass if the CEL is on."

Where my car gets tested in Maryland you can clear the code minutes before the test and they'll pass you, then it'll come back on on the way home.