97 850 with chipped key ignition?

[scot850]

I know the European market had chipped key security prior to 1999 that we got it here in North America, but has anyone ever heard of it on a NA market 97 850? I see a 97 wagon in abscates favorite color for sale in cental B.C. Canada. The young owner says the car had the ignition swapped by the previous owner and it now won't start as the key has not been programmed to the Vin? Do NA supplied cars even have the capability to do this?

Do the European chipped keys have the antenna ring like the 99- NA supplied cars have or how do they read the chip?

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/it ... 208bba9214

Curious?

Neil.

[Clemens]

AFAIK the 96 up European models have the same system as the 99 up US, including the antenna ring

[scot850]

Thanks for the reply. Don't think this is the problem. He says that if he tries to start the car is starts but won't keep running. He also mentioned he had a 'healthy' 30psi at the rail. I gave him the bad news it should be 42 psi. I also gave him a link to the current thread on the pump relay and how to jumper the terminals to check if the relay is bad. He says the engine will run if you keep spraying starter fluid into the engine.

Neil.

[scot850]

So if someone has fitted a key barrel and key from a 99- car to the 97 850 which was not built for the chipped key and antenna, when you turn the key would it still start?

I am thinking if the chipped key and antenna have to give a signal to the ignition to the electrical portion, if id does not get that signal maybe it would not start the car?

Any thoughts?

Neil.

[abscate]

It would start fine. The chipped key works like this.

On cranking, the ECU sends a code to the immobilizer. The immobilizer queries the key via the antenna and sends a code to the immobilizer. The immobilizer compares it to its expected code, and if it validates it it tells the ECU to allow running.

On ME7 a bad code will give you start, stall for first crank. After that it won’t crank.

A car without immobilizer won’t ask to read the key and won’t inhibit running even if there is a key with a code in the ignition.

[xanthefin]

abscate is correct.. was faster than me hehe while i was still writing this.

I don't know no chip Volvos personally yet in full lenght examples but i know there is IMMO2 which is "dummy" version to be honest.. my writing is in eye of European which always has IMMO box with chips and i have car with chips and dummy IMMO2. This writing is just overview of the how it works when IMMO box



That barrell in ignition has no data, its just a coil to read as antenna. It goes directly to IMMO2/3 boxes as is (antenna) and all reading happens inside that box via antenna as LC circuit with transponder in ignition. On 2001 plus when there is CEM there is then that reading part moved into barrell but still not key data inside it.. but not before that its just coil of copper nothing fancy on up 00 years. But warning if you have IMMO2.. you attempt now move IMMO3 antenna.. its different antenna it might not work as antenna on those systems!



IMMO2 (aka 850) has "dummy" version of the IMMO on Fenix 5 ECU's which has Engine data (MIN Code) as put 00 simple way so they don't check it. I will tomorrow check on M4.4 if it will allow it to start that ECU as i haven't check yet. If i can.. i might need try get my 850 antenna off from the car somehow if i can..

IMMO3 (V70 since 98 and rest the Volvo's) has output to VGLA (Alarm) to i think prevent even starter to crank which abscate referred if something was not correct. I haven't verified this part yet personally but i wait it to work as mentioned. IMMO3 plus had many other more upgrades over IMMO2 but i am not listing them.

On both systems you can program with PIN code new keys or manually you can use old keys but for various reasons i let it still out of picture both ways. I am not looking for problems.



To let start the car you can check on Live data/Rolling codes there is RESPONSE to be POSITIVE which IMMO shows does it let it start ECU or not. QUEST.REC shows did it hear from ECU or not.. It validates MIN code (Engine Code) from ECU (this exchange is encrypted with random code each time between ECU and IMMO) as example. VERLOG Code Volvo calls this but they did misinterpet it from BOSCH which calls just that communication line as VERLOG in their documents. VIN code is told to be programmed there but you cannot read it.. Just my own theory but I believe this is just misinfo from Volvo as it uses only the MIN code portion of the VIN as far i see but i could be wrong.. my theory is that are NOT gonna try gonna tell to use part of the VIN.. easier just use full VIN code which has check byte included so then they can then have valid code for sure always so less hassle for Volvo.
Chip status must be read OK (Code is found in Memory) too to be POSITIVE.



MIN Code is what they bond device with. Its 6th and 7th letter/number from your car VIN and it must match your IMMO box (IMMO2 wont on 10V engines/with Fenix 5 ECU as they programmed just as 00) to be capable start it and this can be checked from Rolling code as well. Below is example when it doesn't let you start it due sync has been lost between IMMO3 and ECU due battery going flat. IMMO3 has rolling code too inside with ECU which updates each time you turn ignition ON and it can be lost between ECU or IMMO3 going out of sync or getting corrupted fully. This rolling code affects RESPONSE to be NEGATIVE as well. I want curse over this invention so much at moment because i been going through this pain now some time. Australia Bosch branch.. i am looking at ya!

Example VIN is like YV1LW51F9Y2xxxxx...

[scot850]

Really appreciate your help and knowledge guys! So to clarify, if a 99-00 chipped key ignition barrel is used in error, it should still start the car? So the electrical portion does not receive any signal of any sort from the immobilizer to allow the car to start, or to tell the injector relay to allow the injectors to operate?

I believe from what the owner has told me, the car does crank over. It has low fuel pressure (30psi) but will run briefly if starter fluid is sprayed into the intake, but stops once the spray is removed.

I guess my lack of knowledge on the system takes me a while to understand all the info. Apologize for asking more simplistic questions for my small peanut brain to get around!

The fact that the car will start on starter fluid, at least that says to me the electrical part of the ignition system is working, ie. The coil, spark plugs and cables. If he is measuring 30psi at the rail would also suggest the fuel pump and relay must be working to some extent. It would possibly point toward the injectors not getting pulsed. If I recall the injectors on the 850's were fairly vocal and ticked like a noisy lifter.

Neil.

[xanthefin]

IMMO2 after (or inside 2 seconds) sends "no, kill the engine" (when RESPONSE is been NEGATIVE) and you shouldnt be able leave it running. On M4.4 which has no IMMO requesting code i believe doesn't ask permissions / questions from IMMO at all and doesn't bother with it and IMMO doesn't start the question so it would not too bother with it not being there or do anything about it.
On 850 Alarm relay thingy doesn't receive signal from IMMO2 box. At least on mine lets crank and start. Only if you trigger Alarm etc open door without remote etc "accident intrusion" then it prevents cranking.

IMMO3 on V70 since 98 example has more advanced VGLA / Alarm box which has wire going from IMMO3 box to it receive signal as well so abscate is correct about it.

[scot850]

Thanks again. What I am trying to understand (as I am 8 hours awy from this guys car it is hard to check myself!) that if the case is true that someone has managed to fit a 99-00 ignition barrel (I don't know if they used the original electrical portion or if you can use a 99 barrel and a -98 electrical section together).

If they were somehow able to use the -98 electrical position, then there should be no issues as you explain to me as the electrical portion would be as original so the chipped key would 100% no effect on the starting process.

I don't know if you can even fit a 99-00 electrical portion to the wiring connector to the -98 wiring system without major modification. I don't have access to either wiring diagrams to see if the wiring outputs are the same.

This version is the one I would worry the most about as that could screw things up if the the connector does fit and wiring output pins are different.

So the last clarification is, if the wiring is the same, then I have to assume there is no signal that has to go through the ignition switch electrical portion to switch the injectors on?

Neil.

[xanthefin]

I am not honestly sure how translate all that but.. 98 and up to 00 should be on V70 same antenna or just have LED additionally to shine the ignition barrel nothing else electronically about that antenna portion.

On CEM systems there is A LOT of more stuff there and you shouldn't be physically even put it there.


Thats IMMO3 most likely then those times. If its wrong antenna or not connected Immo box will leave fault code about that.. though IMMO3 is so stupid it can even read code OK and still leave that same Antenna missing code in some edge cases like mine unofficial totally wrong antenna.

More notes. ONLY one antenna works on my V70 IMMO3 boxes. And only if put really carefully my key on my antenna.. its super sensitive. S40 antenna works but only when it was attached to car. When i took it out it didn't anymore lol thanks Volvo.


I have to share this too. On my S40 my other key reads not so easily as other key. I have problems other key to read the chip code so there is possibilities some chips has faded or be "different" but this again requires reading is IMMO reading key status, Request status from ECU etc.. i can't honestly say directly from here what does it do or not do thats why better and easier "ask" from IMMO itself whats wrong or not be.


Maybe you looking this answer just:
If just antenna did change then it shouldn't affect operation. You should read antenna resistance just roughly 5 Ohms if want check is antenna OK for V70's. Antenna is just coil, doesn't do anything itself. All mystery happens inside IMMO3 box which is either black or blue and hidden near where steering column is. If it leaves running over 2 seconds including start then IMMO is not killing the car, i don't know remember did V70 have red light show this anywhere. S40 goes crazy with Engine MIL light if wrong box attached but my 850 doesn't show anything as ECU is just dummy one. And my 850 dashboard red light near window is just Alarm light and won't show IMMO status. i don't remmeber now did V70 VGLA box show IMMO status in any light like on ECC button was wired in some cases there.