New to Volvo - - Massive Oil Loss

[F250]

Although I am new to Volvo’s and this forum, I'm not new to wrenching on turbo engines or to internet forums, as I've been doing all my own 7.3L Powerstroke Turbo Diesel repair for the past 10 years (I have two of them now and my son had a third one for a while). I'm also an engineer whose career began with 20 years in manufacturing and manufacturing quality assurance followed by another 10 years in engineering consulting roles, so I'm anal about specifications, proper procedures, quality parts, reliability, and details!

Short Back Story... One month ago, my daughter picked up a 2007 S60 2.5T. Very clean, drove perfectly, garage kept, clean Carfax. It has 166K miles. I could not verify if the timing belt had ever been replaced, so I was already planning on taking care of that with the tensioner and pulley and water pump.

Fast forward to today... my daughter calls me yesterday and the CEL has come on and the car went into limp mode. She had it towed to a local shop. The shop's diagnosis came back with the following report...
- zero oil registering on the dip stick (was full, clean, and did not have any sign of a burnt odor when we got it)
- cam seals weeping (no evidence of any leaving on the floor of the garage of the previous owner one month ago)
- turbo seals are shot and oil is in the intercooler
- NO signs of any other external oil leaks
- timing belt shows a lot of wear (no surprise)
- Estimate for repairs is $2900, but that is based on NEW turbo from dealer @ $1100, timing belt and pulleys and water pump, plugs, filters, and tune-up. They offered to reduce the cost by having the turbo sent out for rebuild (would drop about $700 off the estimate).

Here's what I else know...
- I can get a rebuild kit with new installation hardware and rebuild the turbo myself for less than $200
- I can take care of the timing belt and pulleys and water pump as I had already planned for that work anyway (best kits appear to be $250-$280, the higher price being from VIVA and includes a Volvo water pump where the lower price is from IPD with a water pump by Aisin).
- my close neighbor has tons of exclusive Volvo tools from his decades of Volvo ownership and repair activities, and they are all at my disposal
- I've done timing belts, water pumps, and cam seals on a Subaru, a Nissan, and have helped my sons on a BMW and VW and Toyota vehicles.

I've already ordered the timing belt and water pump kit and a tune up kit with plugs and filters, but I need more parts to teh rest of the job and need help decided what makes the most sense.

Here's what I DON'T know and need help discerning the best approach...
1. Everything I've been reading today leads me to conclude that I should probably go ahead and include a PCV system replacement - What say you?
2. I'm more than happy (and think it wise) to go ahead and include the new plugs and filters while I've got everything open and accessible - What say you?
3. I believe the cam seals are necessary, but do NOT know if this 2.5T engine (B5254T2 R5 2.5L) has VVT, nor do I know how to confirm prior to ordering all my goodies for July 4th weekend install) - What say you?
4. I've read about installing a check valve with the PCV system replacement - Can someone verify if this is either necessary or helpful or wise?
5. Would it also be wise to go ahead and replace the intercooler boots (hoses) at this point in the vehicles mileage?
6. Do I need to question the necessity of the turbo rebuild? If the rebuild is good and probably necessary, I know that opinions will vary in regards to ME doing the rebuild as opposed to purchasing a rebuilt unit because of potential issues with balancing the inlet and exhaust wheels. That said, I’ve also read that as long as I follow the UK procedure and carefully mark the housings and wheels before tear down that the balancing is not necessary. Other options include purchasing a rebuilt OEM turbo, a rebuilt aftermarket OEM Equivalent turbo, or either a new or rebuilt center cartridge to go into my daughter's existing housings. WHAT SAY YOU?
7. Regardless of which direction I take on the turbo… Should I plan to replace the oil supply and return lines or just the lien gaskets, and what Brands or Vendors should I avoid? and consider buying from?
8. WHAT ELSE do I REALLY need to include in this effort? Keep in mind I'm spending my daughter's money, not mine, and she is on a limited income and is saving for graduate school which she has to complete before she can begin practicing as a Speech Pathologist... I'm just providing the labor to save her $1000-$1500, and it IS a labor of love!

FINALLY... I can search (and will) for links to guides and technical How-to's for all of this work, but if you guys could point me to well-documented guides which are proven and reliable, I would be most grateful.

Thanks ahead of time for any and all input!!

Pete

[F250]

Wow... I guess the "massive oil loss" has sparked a lot of interest. 17 views in less than 20 minutes... yet no responses at all. Hmmm. Not sure what to think about that.

Please, guys, I would be very grateful for some advice and input from those of you in here who I assume are much more knowledgeable and experienced with what I'm in the middle of.

Thanks,

[MarcM]

Do the PCV replacement, will save trouble down the road. Clean the throttle body while you're in there to save on another future issue. It's always a good idea to perform general tune up on a vehicle that's new to you, unless you have full maintenance history. If you can rebuild the turbo yourself, probably cheapest and you know the quality of the rebuild... or purchase from a reputable rebuilder. These are standard turbos and well known. Back to the oil seals, as an engineer you'd know that once a seal starts leaking there is an internal issue with said seal. The VVT's are a PITA to re-time, but replacing the seals is a necessary evil. Generally speaking, if the seals leak it is usually from a blocked PCV system.
There, I got the ball rolling until the usual pro-level guys correct me when they come back online.

[F250]

Marc:

Thanks for the input. I'm clear enough now on the PCV system to where I'll go ahead and get those parts ordered tonight. Cleaning the throttle body "while I'm in there" is the exact type of additional input I needed to get, and will add it to the list of "must do's".

Since initially posting last night, I've watched some turbo rebuild videos which are quite detailed, and have no doubt I can do the job. However, my lsit of "must do's" is getting longer, and I really want to get all of this done in one weekend. Both of my two sons who still live at home will be out of town, so I'll be on my own for the entire task, and I'm sort of breaking into some unchartered territory with all this work on a car with which I am not fluent. Consequently, I'm considering just getting either a new or rebuilt center cartridge for the turbo as a time saver in this list of things to do. Seems like it's always a balance between time and money, isn't it?

Your comment about the PCV system contributing to the leaking cam seals is the same thought process I have been going down, and that could include a need to drop the sump pan to clean out the drain port in the bock which is yet another action item to lengthen the entire process. The "fact" that they are leaking is still unconfirmed as it is only based on what the shop told me. I want to see this for myself, adn will run the engine and check it out thoroughly tomorrow to confirm everything I've heard.

As for the VVT cams seals, I'm still somewhat stumped as to locating a pictorial or video How To, and feel a little uneasy about how to go about getting that task done without screwing up the timing. I clearly understand the need for locking down the camshafts, but have just verified that the locking tool from my neighbor is NOT the correct tool and I need to track down that particular item while figuring out which seals I need to get (there are apparently multiple VVT cam seal types, and I'm not sure which I have, so I'll be cracking the system open after church tomorrow to get a preview and snap some pictures of the particular parts in question. I'm also unsure as to whether or not I should go ahead and replace both the "front" and "rear" seals for each cmashaft. I have confirmed, though, that this car has dual VVT camshafts in it.

A couple more questions have come to mind.

Continuing from the numbered list above...

9. How can I, or can I, confirm that oil is being pushed through the inner turbo seals into either the exhaust or intercooler as suggested by the shop? I have not yet noticed any smoking, but will check during my evaluation tomorrow. What other means do I have to verify this potential failure?

10. I've read about the "Glove Test" for the PCV system. Is that a valid evaluation of a plugged system? Are there other or better means to do this as additional confirmation for the potential pluggage problem?

Come on, Experts or Professionals... your input will be greatly welcomed and appreciated!!

And, again... thanks ahead of time for your input.

[abscate]

You can get expert, cheap, or quick advice by picking any two. The experts here work real jobs and typically take a week to fill in details.

The turbos in these cars seldom fail, and certainly the engine will fail before the turbo if all oil is lost

Oil in the intercooler isn't indicative of turbo failure

The PCV system on the P2 cars is much more robust than the P80s. Run the glove test before throwing parts at it

[F250]

Thanks for the sage input, abscate. I understand that I'm probably coming across as an extremely impatient individual, and I also understand the working world and its impact on "outside" activities like forum participation. I also come from a Ford Truck Enthusiast (FTE) forum where the FTE Brotherhood in the '99-'03 7.3L Powerstroke Diesel subforum has a pervasive presence of guys almost around the clock who can, will, and do jump in with both feet to help folks in need. It's a very large group of very active and knowledgeable folks, and having ten years of that context has upped my expectations for other forums. Meanwhile, I am running out of time to order parts.

I guess part of my impatience has been driven by what has appeared (to me) to be a light disparity between 136 "views" on this thread since I first posted a tad over 12 hours ago, but there are only two replies aside from mine in that same time frame (the ratio of view:reply has seemed a bit odd to me). HOWEVER, I have gone back and looked at the same ratio for other threads, and it appears that the 136:5 ratio is well within the norm. That said, I apologize again for being impatient, but please understand the context from which I come and I will work hard to adjust this forum's environment as best I can. I will also commit to be a productive member who pitches in like I am used to in "the other place" as I become increasingly proficient with helping manage maintenance on my daughter's P2 S60.

The word on turbo and PCV component robustness is good to hear. I will be running the glove test first thing after church tomorrow. How about turbo seal failure diagnosis, though? Any guidance for quick and dirty diagnosis there? Anything aside from the typical in/out or radial shaft play? I need to get parts ordered if I am to get this work done this coming weekend because my wife is without a car while my daughter uses ours for her work, and I need to minimize that situation as quickly as possible.

I am aware that oil can get into the intercooler over the years just from ingested oily vapors from the PCV system... I've experienced as much with my 2 7.3L turbo diesels. At the same time, with no yet-to-be-discovered evidence of external leaking or tailpipe smoking... where oh where did all my daughter's oil go so quickly?

I'll post up what I discover during my inspection process tomorrow.

[F250]

UPDATE - Monday morning, June 20.

I was coaxed by the family to NOT work on the Volvo yesterday afternoon and to simply enjoy Father's Day with the family. It was good to do so, and I don;t regret that decision at all. I checked the Glove Test first thing this morning, though, and the results were NEGATIVE, meaning that the system is PLUGGED.

I put the glove on at cold initial startup and it started filling up right away. Increased throttle slightly (approx 1000 rpm), and the glove inflated quickly. All of this was with a cold engine. Given this result, I decided it was not necessary to do the "engine warm" version of the test until I get home this evening.

No oil on the ground under the car from sitting since Friday. Level was still full from having driven 6 miles from the shop to the house (easy throttle and always kept below 2000 rpm for the complete 6 mile trip). Decided to drive it to my office this morning, real easy like, just so my wife can have a vehicle available during the day. Will check oil level and redo the Glove Test this evening when I get home.

[F250]

UPDATED PLAN - Late Monday Morning, June 20.

Perhaps I'm posting in the wrong section?? Since I cannot seem to get any additional input or guidance, I'll just post my decision-making process and move onward with updates as to what I discover along the way, and any resulting solutions (with pictures). Perhaps my experience will be helpful for someone else in the future.

Since I've thus far continued to see no external leaks, and the Glove Test reveals a plugged PCV system, I'm going to focus on the timing belt, idlers, all four camshaft seals, water pump, PCV system, plugs, fuel filter, oil & oil filter change, cabin air filter, and both radiator hoses. All of those parts are ordered and on their way to me. Tonight, I'll see if I can determine how much oil is actually in the intercooler, and if it is slogged like the shop said, I'll order a CHRA and swap it into the existing housings. Once all of that is in hand and done, I'll keep and drive the car for several days with a watchful eye on oil level, and if everything seems OK, then I'll let my daughter have it back and have her keep a very, very close eye on oil consumption for the next couple of months (checking oil daily for a week, then move to every other day for another week, and then if all is good, move to weekly for another 4-6 weeks).

[MarcM]

I understand your pain with asking for help... but again people volunteer their info at will. Coming from the days of Ramtruck-L email list with hundreds of emails a day, you'd think nobody was here. Then again, we're in a forum section that specifically covers the V70/XC70/S60 (same type of focus as the Dodge Ram thing I mentioned earlier) except not quite so gung-ho. You are in the right place though. You'll get substantially more help here than the other Volvo forum. If you get a reply there, you'd better play the lottery... generally the replies there are crass and condescending anyway. Matthews Volvo Site is by far the best owner-supported forum for Volvos unless you're into Volvo performance (that would be the SwedeSpeed guys, although they answer general service questions too).
I'm about to post a review of a Mechanic-in-a-can onto YouTube that seemed to help my S60. Quieted the engine and mo-powah! It's claim to fame is it breaks down sludge and baked-on fumes (aka varnish, the maroon stuff) from the engine. My hand says it certainly took out the varnish when it came out of the drain plug. Only thing I noticed was increased engine noise in the cab. Discovered when we shoved the lower steering joint up and towards cabin for steering rack change, we popped the boot seal inside the cabin off it's mount which keeps the water and air out of the cabin.

[vtl]

PCV first, don't forget to drop the pan and clean the oil return passage. With PCV clogged it simply makes no sense to fix the seals.