Steering and Suspension Diagnosis

[prwood]

2001 V70 2.4T.

I attempted to have a wheel alignment done, but the mechanic (mechanic #1) said the car would need new control arms and ball joints before they could do the alignment.

I took it to a different mechanic, who initially said that the car didn't need those things, that it just needed a left inner tie rod, in order to do an alignment. When I did bring it in to do the alignment a few days later, however, they said that it would need the control arms (but not ball joints) replaced, as well as the left inner tie rod, before they could do the alignment. Mechanic #2 also added that the rear coil springs needed to be replaced, not for the alignment but to pass inspection. Mechanic #2 also expressed concern that the steering rack had some play.

I'm in the process of sourcing a third mechanic for a third opinion, as I had existing concerns about trusting the first one, and just learned from a friend of some reasons not to trust the second one.

In the meantime, are there any tests I can do at home to verify the above conditions? These are probably pretty run of the mill checks to many folks, but for me, suspension and steering components are something I know next to nothing about. Thank you.

[oragex]

These guys are shady. Can't even talk about these 'repairs' other than suggest searching a honest - preferably Volvo specialist - on local.google.com. Just the play in the steering and the rear springs - they rust but rarely break - it's an instant red light. Th econtrol arms if they need replaced by all means buy only Lemforder online.

Control arms- turn the wheel to lock and look at the rear bushing for big cracks. Please don't replace the ball joints unless they show you it has good play or the rubber boot is ripped. Again, use only Lemforder or repair again next year.

[prwood]

<<<Disclaimer: I know many people don't like to read long forum posts, so if that's you, please be warned... this is long. No need to waste your time. Just stop now. But for those who do have time to read and offer advice, I appreciate it. Obviously I've done my research, and also obtained professional advice for these issues, but I need a sanity check from people who don't stand to profit from my car problems..>>>

0. If it helps to understand where I'm coming from with this and the other threads I've been posting: I'm working against a hard deadline as we have a big family road trip starting next week. Somewhere in the 9,000 mile neighborhood over six weeks. It can possibly be pushed back a few days, but I'm trying to get this all done as this is our family car that we've been planning to take. We don't have another suitable vehicle readily available. Also I have lots to do other than work on the car, so I'm willing to outsource some/all of the labor on this. Canceling the road trip is not an option.

1. A little more detail on the mechanics and their estimates (yes, this might be a bit like Jerry Springer for car repair joints):
- Mechanic 1 is a large national chain repair shop. They installed tires on this car last year (mostly because I had a gift certificate from a family member).
- I went there asking for two new tires on the front (on my initiative), and an alignment. They said that they couldn't do the alignment because the front control arms and ball joints needed to be replaced. Their quote for that plus the tires and alignment was $1200 parts and labor.

- Mechanic 2 is a local shop across the street from my work that has grown huge in the past 10 years. They don't specialize in any particular makes or models, but they come from a rally car racing background and do lots of performance tuning in additional to general public repairs. I used to have them do all the maintenance and repairs on my cars up until a couple of years ago when my financial priorities changed and I decided to avoid paying people to work on my car unless it was something I wasn't equipped to do.
- I came to them the day after Mechanic 1 quoted me $1200. After their initial inspection, they quoted me $440 to do a left inner tie rod, install two new tires, and do the alignment. I came back a few days later and left the car with them to have the work done. I got a call later where they apologized for "not catching this" the first time around and said that before they could do the alignment, they would in fact need to replace the front control arms (but not ball joints), left inner tie rod, and also replace the rear coil springs. They said both of them were "broken" but specifically that the right one was broken in a way that was unsafe. Their quote was $1600 for the the control arms, tie rod, coil springs, alignment, and two tires. In addition to this work, they also mentioned some other issues such as noticing play in the steering rack, noticing a "significant" oil leak (I know I have an oil leak, which I'm fairly certain is coming from the turbo drain pipe and for which I have the seals to fix), and noticing that an exhaust hanger was missing (this is true). Their take on the matter was that I should consider whether I actually wanted to put this amount of money into the car, or look at getting another car.
- I'm actually pretty PO'd with Mechanic #2 because had they "caught" these issues the first time around, we would have had almost a full extra week to figure out what to do.
- After I got back to work today, a co-worker told me that he had stopped taking his Jeep there because on almost every oil change they told him that one of his sway bar links needed to be replaced, and the last straw was when they told him that all four needed to be replaced at once. He doesn't trust them anymore. I had considered this a trusted mechanic in the past, but now I'm not so sure. He recommended a mechanic that I used to use a while ago, a great shop, but their location isn't convenient for me and they typically book out several weeks in advance.

2. I visited two more mechanics today:
- Mechanic 3 is a two-guy shop I've never used that specializes in Volvo, is located in the town I work in, and gets good reviews. I drive past them regularly... they've got a big Volvo sign over the door, a Volvo banner by the road, and a P80 V70 in the same color as my P2 V70 decked out with their company info sitting out in front. Not that appearances mean anything, but clearly they like Volvos.
- They did not have time to look at my car this week, but I did book an appointment for Monday. I had a quick discussion with them about the diagnosis from the other shops and about the other estimates that I got. Obviously they couldn't say much without looking at the car, but did mention a few things: 1. That most places will tend to just replace the whole control arm even though just the bushing is bad, because replacing just the bushing is a lot more difficult and time consuming. 2. That they would look at any options they had to see if they could fix just what needed to be fixed (i.e. maybe just the bushings). 3. That they thought it seemed unlikely that the rear coils would need to be replaced on a V70 (on an XC70 they said it was more common). Again, no diagnosis and quote because they haven't looked at the car yet.

- Mechanic 4 is a small family shop in the town I live in that has installed tires for me before and has done alignments for my father-in-law, who recommended I try them for this work. They started out only selling and installing tires, but have since expanded to do alignments and all other kinds of service.
- They actually had me pull the car right into the shop when I got there, and they jacked it up to check everything out while I was standing there in the garage. Visual inspection of the parts in question as well as manhandling the wheels in various directions to see where there was play. They said that the front left control arm needed to be replaced due to the bushings being bad, and also that both lower ball joints needed to be replaced. And they recommended having both control arms replaced. They weren't able to detect any issues with the left inner tie rod or steering rack. They also agreed with Mechanic 3's assessment that the rear coil springs needed to be replaced. They were able to point out where the right rear coil spring was cracked. They were actually just closing when I showed up, but the guy I talked with, who turned out to be the owner, hung around after closing to talk through everything and give me a quote. They quoted $1450 to replace the front control arms and ball joints, rear coil springs, put on two new tires, and do the alignment. They said they could probably get it done in the next couple of days.

Overall, I really wish Mechanic 3 had been able to look at my car today so that I could have their diagnosis and estimate to compare, since my timetable is so short. I have a feeling that they might have better insight into the most reasonable course of action. However, I'm not sure we can afford to wait to get their estimate based on our timetable. I'm leaning towards Mechanic 4 because of the timetable

3. In addition to all of that, I did my own inspection and took photos for you all to look at. There's only so much you can infer from photos, but if you have any comments let me know. Here is the link:

http://gallery.prwdot.org/Cars/2001-Vol ... -Steering/

The only part I feel really looks bad is the front control arm bushing on both sides. The rear bushings and ball joints and control arms themselves, I couldn't really tell from looking if they were good or not. That's where I'm hoping you folks will come in...

4. But does anything ACTUALLY need to be done?
- A different question to ask is, "does any of this need to be done right now?" We don't have a state inspection coming up until November, but we do have a 9,000 mile road trip starting next week. My main goals over the past two months have been to make sure that the car will be drive-able, efficient AND safe to drive for the duration of the trip. Getting an alignment was part of achieving that goal, because I wanted to be sure that the car wouldn't be drifting or vibrating on long drives. However, just trying to get an alignment has led to all of these additional concerns about the steering and suspension that supposedly must be fixed before an alignment can be done. If anyone has a recommendation on what we really ought to be checking and fixing before this trip, as far as suspension is concerned, let me know. Other areas of the car I feel I have a pretty good handle on.

4. My Perspective

I believe that this car is pretty solid at its core and should last a long time. I would rather spend money on it than on a newer used car. In other circumstances, the fixes we're looking at right now could be delayed or spread out, but given that we have a road trip coming up, we need to get things right asap. And even iif we weren't going on the road trip, we'd still have the state safety inspection to pass in November.

5. Working backwards here, I thought it seemed logical to run through checklists of symptoms of problems with the various parts that the mechanics recommend replacing, and see if this car had any that matched up with them. These are from FCP:

Control Arm Failure Symptoms:
Play in suspension joints where these arms meet the subframe and/or knuckle: YES
Buckling noise emanating from the suspension: NO
Uneven tire wear: NO
Inability to properly align vehicle: YES
Shutter or vibration coming from the steering wheel at highway speed: SORT OF: It's not actually the steering wheel that seems to vibrate as much as the whole car, and it only happens at highway speed when accelerating, not while crusing.
Wandering or pulling sensation from side to side felt on the steering wheel: YES, occasional pull to the right

Control Arm Bushing Failure Symptoms:
Uneven tire wear and inability to align vehicle: NO / YES
Poor handling characteristics: NO, at least not that I can detect
Loud clunking, metal on metal sounds, suspension buckling: YES, some clunking
Vibration or wobble in the steering wheel: SORT OF as above
Banging sound over bumps: YES, but not every single bump, depends on speed and depth/height of bump

Inner Tie Rod Failure Symptoms:
Uneven Tire Wear: NO
Play In Wheels: YES
Pulling Condition When Driving: YES
Sloppy Steering: NO (although I'm not really sure what this means)
Poor Steering Response: NO, no problems with actual steering
Torn Ball Joint Boots: NOT SURE, as I was only looking at the control arm ball joints - none of the mechanics noted torn boots

Signs of Bad Coil Springs: (Not from FCP):
Excessive Vehicle Sagging: MAYBE? Honestly I'm not sure what height this vehicle is supposed to be at. You can take a look at my photos and judge for yourself: http://gallery.prwdot.org/Cars/2001-Vol ... /i-MBhJ8RG
Abnormal Tire Wear: NO
Excessive Noise: NO, although again, I'm not sure what's excessive. We don't hear the sounds of coil springs rattling around which I've had on other cars with broken coil springs. Honestly my hearing is not so great, and also I'm driving from the front of the car, and those springs are way in the back, so maybe they're making noise I can't hear.
Excessive Vehicle Bounce: YES
Excessive Vehicle Sway: NO

Thanks for reading this far, and I hope someone will have advice.

[tryingbe]

Your control arms and sway bar links are due for replacement. Get lemforder only or you will have to do all them again very soon.

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/volvo- ... s60cakit2l

[jbeebo]

Hard to tell from the pictures but here's my $0.02.

Lower Control Arm bushings look questionable. Left rear bushing rubber looks torn from the inner metal sleeve. How many miles on these parts? If more than 100k miles, most probably need to be replaced. IMHO, replace these before your trip, it will make the drive much more relaxed. Don't bother trying to press new bushings, not worth the time, replace the whole LCA.

Sway bar drop links are shot - I'd replace these while doing the LCAs (before your trip), they are pretty cheap anyways.

Ball joints look OK to me. I see no evidence of a torn boot. These are pretty robust on P2.

After replacing LCAs and drop links I'd get it aligned and take it for a spin. That maybe the end of it.

Why are they saying you need new tie rods (inner or outer)?
No comment on the springs - very strange they are cracked...are you sure, or are they looking at cracked plastic coating on the springs (which is harmless)?

Quite surprised the CV boots are intact given the condition of the suspension parts. The left side subframe looks to have a grease stripe - are you sure the inner CV boot on the left is OK? I question this because of your comment about vibration only while accelerating at highway speeds. Vibration or growling noises only during acceleration are indicative of inner CV joint failure. Having said this, you can go a very VERY long time on failed CV boots and questionable joints before it will leave you stranded.

Yes it's normal for the wheel to change camber at full lock.

[jonesg]

Sent you a message, get the parts, lets do it before I retire to Maine in 2 weeks.

[prwood]

Took the best photos I could get of the coil springs. Here is the left rear:



Here is the right rear:



On the right rear you can see pretty clearly where it's broken. The left rear doesn't look that way. However, I realize that on both sides it's nearly impossible to tell because most of the coil isn't visible.

I also made a video while pushing down on the rear of the car to show the travel. Here is the left side (yes that was me popping the trim out of place):

https://photos.smugmug.com/Cars/2001-Vo ... 14-640.mp4

Here is the right side:

https://photos.smugmug.com/Cars/2001-Vo ... 15-640.mp4

The right side definitely had a lot less travel than the left, which I suppose is due to the spring being broken.

At shop #4 I witnessed them testing the ball joints. They jacked the wheels up off the ground and tested with hands on 12 and 6, rocking the wheel in and out on a horizontal axis. There was definite play, about an inch and a half in either direction, on both sides.

[tryingbe]

An inch of play? I wouldn't drive it until all the suspension issues are addressed.

[prwood]

An inch of play? I wouldn't drive it until all the suspension issues are addressed.

Maybe I'm not gauging the play correctly? Do you measure at the joint or at the outer edge of the tire as you're rocking it?

[Georgeandkira]

You know this already I'm pretty sure. But first...
Have you considered renting a car with unlimited mileage then address your car calmly?
Kind of too bad since a 9,000 mile leg job is something most turbos need....a vacation for your car!

Your planned trip has a crudely averaged mileage of <215 miles per day...not far as big trips go.

Maybe you could go it "as is" as you've been driving it a while already, right?
There's a time honored caveat against having / doing lots of work on a car immediately before a trip.

New control arm replacement gets them out and back in quickly. Pressing in bushings involves a separate parts delivery (error chance), time on a press (4 error chances). If an unpracticed hand cracks one of the LCA bosses your schedule goes down the tubes.
Replace the arms or get a junkyard pair and have polys or regular bushings pressed in at a NAPA (or any light weight shop), after the trip.
Also, this is the time to do ball joints "for almost no labor cost" as the thing will be apart.
Don't do new tires until you have the front end parts replaced. If you do they'll simply take an "uneven wear hit".

The one spring is busted in the photograph. No brainer there-time for a pair.
A word on coil springs:
In my opinion, springs are made in batches and are subject to material quality variations.
We get quality and shoddy products across the entire industry.
Also, do not forget variations in climate, road salt use, road conditions and driving style contribute mightily.
I do not subscribe to the "Volvo designed a larger diameter coil and the springs break more often" theory.

As mentioned above, the one sway bar link joint pictured is evidence enough for all 4 to be replaced. The MOOG "Problem Solvers" I got for my V70's front had grease fittings (MOOG #K80501). I don't know about the rears as I had bought another brand.
As stated above, they're cheap enough to be off your radar.

Do keep in mind that all this stuff are common maintenance items (unless you want to exclude the springs).
I'll add that your "excessive rear end bounce" could EASILY point to rear shocks; another maintenance item AS ARE ATHE FRONT STRUTS.

I'm not trying to make you feel bad but you A) did all your shopping homework well-congrats, but B) failed to allow adequate time.

Consider the rental even though you probably bought a Volvo for understandable "touring reasons".

The poster above who offered to flog this job before he retires to Maine could be the best way to go.

Good luck with your decision(s). Kira

OMG! I just read that "inch of play" repartee. Unless the mechanic is some evil wizard at deception (doubtful) your car is unsafe to drive at present.