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98 v70 na engine mounts -155000 miles Topic is solved

Help, Advice and DIY Tutorials on Volvo's P80 platform cars -- Volvo's 1990s "bread and butter" cars -- powered by the ubiquitous and durable Volvo inline 5-cylinder engine.

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98v70dad
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Re: 98 V70 na engine mounts -155000 miles

Post by 98v70dad »

sleddriver wrote:Well, you already know my thoughts on this. It's been well documented. You'll definitely notice AND your daily, lengthy driving-experience will greatly improve. This job will also be much easier given your NA status. First step is to see how much effort is involved in busting loose both top two mounting nuts. I use half ATF/half acetone when necessary.

Kudos to being "too particular"! She's lucky you pay attention to details. My aunt's husband was the opposite, which resulted in shoddy work, half-fixed ________ (FITB), and hen-pecking to do it right. $2100 is too much to accept shoddy work.
Did your post go into how to tell if the mounts were bad? I don't remember that. If it did I'll look it up and reread it. I do remember that you said it was a real PITA and your post had a lot of details.

I would guess that a nearly 20 year old mount is shot even if it looks OK. However, I was shocked at the relatively decent condition they seem to be in. They didn't look too difficult to get loose in my car. I've got a non turbo and there is actually a decent amount of room. The one issue that I could envision is that since I have to jack the engine by cribbing and lifting the oil pan, the jack will take up the space (or most of it) I need to lie in to get access to the aft bottom bolt. I suppose I can get in there but once you block the whole central area with a jack your options get limited pretty quick. I also determined that I would need a set of wobble sockets. I have some universal joint sockets but no wobble sockets - I'll have to order them or see if sears has them.

My wife got rear ended by a woman in a Nissan Leaf. That particular car has a recall on the brakes which the woman said she hasn't gotten around to getting accomplished (irresponsible). That car folded up like an accordion. I'm pretty sure that she got a brand new car or an entirely new front end since it was a lease and the repair would have been very expensive. Our 3 month old car was damaged enough to show up as wrecked on the Carfax report and it required a week in the body shop. I am very thankful that nobody got hurt which was a blessing but getting the car fixed has been a real annoyance.

This was a very minor accident (for our car) and even the minor damage cost $2100 to repair. Since the police report said the other driver was 100% at fault you would think her insurance company would take care of the "victim". Its all about business and they argued for the cheapest fix at every step. The whole thing has been a very annoying distraction. Luckily we've never been in an accident. I had no idea how the cards are stacked against the car owner. The insurance people met with the body shop people to discuss how to get the cost as low as possible while the shop still makes money. So the strategy involves either skipping non critical items/steps or using low quality parts. Since ours was only months old I insisted on using the dealership body shop so I knew we would get OE parts. The car owner has no real say in what gets done until you get the finished product and can accept or reject it. They depend upon you being either stupid or ignorant or both and aren't used to someone crawling under the car to look at what they've done. The body shop manager looked at me in disbelief when I dropped to the ground and shoved myself under the car to inspect his work. When I invited him to come under the car and look at what I was talking about he declined.

My wife is usually a pushover so I handled the back and forth negotiations. The reason she was mad at me is because when she went to pick up the car the body shop manager told her what he thought of me and didn't spare any details - she can't handle conflict - I actually enjoy it. I expect that my attention to detail completely erased their profit margin. Now I have to start the process for negotiating the cars diminished value which is likely to go on for another couple of weeks.

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Post by abscate »

Pretty different here. Once you get the loss or settlement quoted you get the check and then you go and fix your car.

There is no way the company can get involved with the repairer - thats between you and them, and you have the gold.

I think in NJ its even better from what I recall Evan told me - they have a very limited time window to act in good faith.
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Post by Jaguar xjs »

I'd open the hood and ask your wife or able helper to start the car and run slowly through the gears. Watch the engine. There should be a very slight rock if mounts are in good shape. If it appears the engine is going to hit the firewall or radiator, time for mounts.

I replaced all of them a couple weeks back. Tough job and spent nearly half a day but the effort was well worth it to me.

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Post by sleddriver »

98v70dad wrote:Did your post go into how to tell if the mounts were bad? I don't remember that. If it did I'll look it up and reread it. I do remember that you said it was a real PITA and your post had a lot of details.

I would guess that a nearly 20 year old mount is shot even if it looks OK. However, I was shocked at the relatively decent condition they seem to be in. They didn't look too difficult to get loose in my car. I've got a non turbo and there is actually a decent amount of room. The one issue that I could envision is that since I have to jack the engine by cribbing and lifting the oil pan, the jack will take up the space (or most of it) I need to lie in to get access to the aft bottom bolt. I suppose I can get in there but once you block the whole central area with a jack your options get limited pretty quick. I also determined that I would need a set of wobble sockets. I have some universal joint sockets but no wobble sockets - I'll have to order them or see if sears has them.
Mine were 19 yrs old, the rubber was a bit cracked, one I think had a split in it. The tranny was right down on the SF. It all added up to "time to replace".

Mine was a PITA...mostly due to the rear and poor access to both frozen top nuts. Your NA will be easier. I too had to wiggle around the jack. UJ sockets might do. See if you can bust those nuts loose! It's a safe bet to say you'll be rather amazed how much better it'll ride with new HMMs. After all, only three MMs support the engine. Two are fluid filled and probably sagging and now 19yrs old.

Do them one-at-a-time if you like, then go for a drive. But do the rear one FIRST as it's closest to your seat. And save yourself some time if you have access to a Sawzall by cutting through the top stud.
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98v70dad
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Post by 98v70dad »

This weekend I started doing a little planning to do the hydraulic engine mount replacement. First I looked at my tools. Harbor Frieght had a set of extensions on sale for 14.99. One of the extensions in the three piece set is a 3/8 drive 24 inch extension. Perfect (probably). An extension that long will be hard to brace and put any big amount of torque on it without slipping off of the nut....still thinking about that. I have a 3/8 flex adapter that looks like it might work. I've read a bunch of posts on this site and others and most of them were adamant about needing a 15 mm wobble socket to remove the topside nut. I slipped the extension with a 15 mm socket on a universal and it seemed like it would work well until I touched a hot wire with the extension and sparks flew (stupid mistake - wasn't thinking). Anyhow I think my setup will work without a wobble socket ... still thinking about that.

1) If you've done a normally aspirated V70 and just used a universal joint on the socket and extension I'd like to hear if it worked for you.

I looked for a cheaper set of wobble sockets and couldn't find anything. Harbor Freight's set (about $30 on sale) gets poor reviews and doesn't have a 15 mm socket. I would pay up to 50 (maybe too low to get anything) for set because I'll probably use them again. One snap-on 15 mm wobble socket on ebay is $30. I might do that, but I'd rather have a whole set of lower quality sockets for more money than one good one. I'm not willing to pay hundreds for a set.

2) If you know a cheaper source of a set let me know as I've spent at least an hour looking for options online. I rapidly got irritated with Sears website and gave up with them. Somebody on another site suggested gearwrench but I didn't find anything there.

On my car (non-turbo) it looks like I have easy access to both top and bottom nuts on both front and back mounts. I'm thinking getting the old mounts out and new ones back in the tight space will be the trick. It seems to me that doing the back one first would be easiest because you wouldn't be fighting the brand new (taller) mount in the front if you did the front first....still thinking about that.

3) Any advantage to doing the back first if you're doing them both on the same day?

I've read somewhere not to lift the engine more than 1.5 inches to avoid damaging anything. It seems like you have to lift it more than that to get the mounts in .... still thinking about that.

4) Any comments on how far to lift the engine to be successful without doing any damage?

The FCP video doesn't say anything about taking off the engine mount brackets but it seems most people take them off. Somehow the guy in the video doesn't seem to have any problem sliding them in there. If I have to take off the brackets I'm not sure I want to do this project....still thinking about that. I have a neck problem (old injury) that is aggravated by looking up or straining my neck and all of those bolts for two brackets in limited space laying on my back will be too much.

5) Has anyone with a non-turbo V70 gotten the mounts out and in without removing the brackets? Is magic involved? If you were able to do it what is the key to success? Sleddriver suggested using a sawzall (I've got one) to saw off the top stud get out the back mount. It seems like the tight space would make this difficult but maybe not.

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Post by sleddriver »

  • Have you tried to loosen both top nuts with what you have?
  • 1/4" drive will fit into tighter spaces, though in your case you won't have to angle around a turbo.
  • I was forced to go with a separate UJ after breaking a UJ/15mm socket: Too much torque applied by hand unfortunately!
  • The advantage to doing the rear first is that it's the most frustrating. Having conquered it thought, the front will be all downhill.
  • I too noted the "don't lift too high" vergage. I probably exceeded it. No harm done.
  • I re-watched FCP's video. It WAS a turbo AND he didn't remove the rear HMM 'helmet/heat shield' nor the motor mount!! Neither did he drop the sub-frame. Amazing...does your NA have the helmet/heat-shield? Having done this job myself, if I had it to do over again, I'd drop the rear sub-frame per IPD's instructions (see their front sway bar installation instructions) rather than fuss with the engine bracket bolts (which are a MPITA without pnuematic tools because they were very, very tight and access is very poor when laying on your back.
  • I prop'd my head up at times with my bicycle helmet. You could also use an old phone book or an old towel.
  • I like the idea of using a pry-bar to lever the rear mount out. Note the one he uses is rather short. This is key.
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98v70dad
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Post by 98v70dad »

sleddriver wrote:
  • Have you tried to loosen both top nuts with what you have?
  • 1/4" drive will fit into tighter spaces, though in your case you won't have to angle around a turbo.
  • I was forced to go with a separate UJ after breaking a UJ/15mm socket: Too much torque applied by hand unfortunately!
  • The advantage to doing the rear first is that it's the most frustrating. Having conquered it thought, the front will be all downhill.
  • I too noted the "don't lift too high" vergage. I probably exceeded it. No harm done.
  • I re-watched FCP's video. It WAS a turbo AND he didn't remove the rear HMM 'helmet/heat shield' nor the motor mount!! Neither did he drop the sub-frame. Amazing...does your NA have the helmet/heat-shield? Having done this job myself, if I had it to do over again, I'd drop the rear sub-frame per IPD's instructions (see their front sway bar installation instructions) rather than fuss with the engine bracket bolts (which are a MPITA without pnuematic tools because they were very, very tight and access is very poor when laying on your back.
  • I prop'd my head up at times with my bicycle helmet. You could also use an old phone book or an old towel.
  • I like the idea of using a pry-bar to lever the rear mount out. Note the one he uses is rather short. This is key.
[*]Have you tried to loosen both top nuts with what you have?
They have been getting weekly applications of PB Blaster. I didn't want to unhook my battery on a weeknight and when sparks flew I "planned forward" trying to loosen the nuts.

[*]1/4" drive will fit into tighter spaces, though in your case you won't have to angle around a turbo.
The extension set I bought from HF also had an 18"long 1/4 drive extension. I also have a 1/4 drive universal joint and an 8 inch 1/4 drive extension so that could work. I'll check it out. 1/4 drive hardware seems a bit spindly though for a 15mm tough nut.

[*]I was forced to go with a separate UJ after breaking a UJ/15mm socket: Too much torque applied by hand unfortunately!
OK.

[*]The advantage to doing the rear first is that it's the most frustrating. Having conquered it thought, the front will be all downhill.
OK.

[*]I too noted the "don't lift too high" verbiage. I probably exceeded it. No harm done.
OK. It seems to me you have to lift the engine pretty high to get the parts in. The old HMMs are probably at least 1.5 inches flatter than new ones. The 1.5 inch limitation seems ridiculous to me considering that. Damaging the CV axles seems unlikely to me. IF there are metal hydraulic lines attached to the engine they probably have their limits. The ones that attach to the top corner of the radiator come to mind. Each time I remove those they leak a little more when reinstalled so I always hesitate to remove them. The clips that hold them in place are battered and are cinched down tight with band clamps

[*]I re-watched FCP's video. It WAS a turbo AND he didn't remove the rear HMM 'helmet/heat shield' nor the motor mount!! Neither did he drop the sub-frame. Amazing...does your NA have the helmet/heat-shield? Having done this job myself, if I had it to do over again, I'd drop the rear sub-frame per IPD's instructions (see their front sway bar installation instructions) rather than fuss with the engine bracket bolts (which are a MPITA without pneumatic tools because they were very, very tight and access is very poor when laying on your back.
OK. I do have the heavy heat shield over the hydraulic mount. But I've got straight access (although awkward don to the top nut) I don't disagree with your approach but I really am on the fence about doing this job and taking anything additional off just doesn't appeal to me. Good information. It may be necessary to do as you say. If it is I'll probably pass on the whole project.

[*]I prop'd my head up at times with my bicycle helmet. You could also use an old phone book or an old towel.
Good idea. I get numbness in my hands and extremities when craning my neck and it lasts for weeks or months It is the result of a whiplash type of injury back when I was about 30. If I have to spend a lot of time looking up I'd rather go with the car vibrations until I get rid of the car in three years instead of numbness that may last for months or forever. Painting a ceiling causes it to last for a month.

[*]I like the idea of using a pry-bar to lever the rear mount out. Note the one he uses is rather short. This is key. I have a very long 18" pry bar from Harbor Freight but they are cheap. Would spring for the short one which is about 6 inches. I've watched the video many times. Will watch it again to see the prybar. I hadn't paid attention to that.

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Post by sleddriver »

  • OK. Soaked enough. Try busting them loose. I should have thought to use my pencil torch as the factory probably used Loctite Red! You'll never know until you do it....Sparks?? From where? Is there some problem with disconnecting your battery? (Confused...) No issues ever doing it on mine.
  • Yea, 1/4" HW may be too spindly given the length. I recall wishing I had a pneumatic ratchet strong enough to just torque-bust-them-loose. I need to buy one.
  • Perhaps an email or phone call to FCP asking them HTH they got the rear HMM out "so easily"? Ben stated they did both + filming in three hours! He must have a magic wand, black cat and pointy hat with both Moon & Stars on it. Black Magic.....(Now I'm curious....I might call him myself just to satisfy my curiosity!)
  • Your head won't be tipped over like looking up at the night sky. No worries about that with this job. Wear eye protection!
  • Unfortunately the video isn't well exposed up in that area, thus it's all black. Don't want to reveal what Black Magic they used to pry that thing out of there! They need to release the "un-cut" version for us DIY'ers.
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98v70dad
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Post by 98v70dad »

sleddriver wrote:
  • OK. Soaked enough. Try busting them loose. I should have thought to use my pencil torch as the factory probably used Loctite Red! You'll never know until you do it....Sparks?? From where? Is there some problem with disconnecting your battery? (Confused...) No issues ever doing it on mine.

    Not disconnecting the battery is a time and motivation issue. When I get home in the evening I have been away approximately 12 hours. On an average day that includes driving an hour to an hour and a half in Atlanta traffic which is like driving on the freeway in LA these days. When I get home I am essentially done - motivation do anything is gone. I do my car work on the weekends or my Monday off ( I work long days to get every other Monday off). I've disconnected the battery many many times. ... I'm just not motivated enough to do that get, all hot and bothered and then try to fall asleep shortly thereafter.

    I will probably look at breaking those nuts loose on this Monday coming up because "the Mountains are calling and I must go" camping this weekend.

    I shorted between the frame and some cylindrical electrical device in the front. Its about the size of a coke can and directly above and to the left of the top HMM nut. There are both positive and negative electrical connections on it so the potential (pun intended) to short against it is pretty high...I just didn't think about it. Whatever that thing is, it has never giving me any trouble. After the spark event everything still works so I guess minimal harm was done. I can move pretty quickly when I see sparks.

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Post by sleddriver »

OK. I understand. Time & motivation during the week are in very short supply. No worries.

Given the amount of time you spend commuting, you're in for quite a surprise once both mounts are replaced.
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