Late P80 power steering fluid - Not listed on parts sites? Topic is solved

[Oro]

@ORO How much B-12 are you suggesting add to the PS before changing fluid?

I put in about “a shot” - meaning literally an ounce and a 1/2. It’s a fairly strong solvent so I try to err on the conservative side with it, and not leave it in the system more than a day or two at the most. I have had (very) good result with that on multiple vehicles. It has smoothed and made quiet pumps just with that alone before adding the ester oil or atf/ester additive mix. For the lubegard additive, I use the same dosage as they say for the transmission - 1oz/quart of fluid.

[pfmet]

I follow now. Got a bit turned around by the Swepco conversation. My 99 manual says to use ATF and it also says ATF only on the reservoir cap itself, which I’d what’s been in there. So good quality ATF it shall be. V50m66’s post makes it sound like the different fluids changed between 98 and 99, but it seems it was actually from 99 to 00. Thanks to all for the input. These oil threads always seem to get a bit overwhelming at times.

[V50M66]

No, it very much changed with the pump switchover for ‘99. Any info stating otherwise is incorrect. Yes, even Volvo’s own literature. They tend to have the wrong info around the time they switch fluid specs - this isn’t the only example.

Additives are not recommended and are a waste of money. Just run the correct fluid (CHF11S or CHF202, in the case of your ‘99) and it will be fine

[MoVolvos]

I follow now. Got a bit turned around by the Swepco conversation. My 99 manual says to use ATF and it also says ATF only on the reservoir cap itself, which I’d what’s been in there. So good quality ATF it shall be. V50m66’s post makes it sound like the different fluids changed between 98 and 99, but it seems it was actually from 99 to 00. Thanks to all for the input. These oil threads always seem to get a bit overwhelming at times.

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ATF is a high in detergent and is not call an oil but rather a fluid. People put them in motors before doing an oil change to clear more stuff out. Most Swepco products produce Tribofilm. Been around for a long time and it works. Along with the synergy of other additives it overcomes the minor frictional development of the Tribofilm. If you have problems with blowby in the car use Swepco motor oil. If the noise continues in the poweringsteering pump give the 714 20W a try. It's that good. Many high end engine builders use Swepco as break in oil due to the protections from the Tribfilm.
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https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 22-01635-x
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[Oro]

ATF is a high in detergent and is not call an oil but rather a fluid. People put them in motors before doing an oil change to clear more stuff out. Most Swepco products produce Tribofilm. Been around for a long time and it works. Along with the synergy of other additives it overcomes the minor frictional development of the Tribofilm. If you have problems with blowby in the car use Swepco motor oil. If the noise continues in the poweringsteering pump give the 714 20W a try. It's that good. Many high end engine builders use Swepco as break in oil due to the protections from the Tribfilm.
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https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 22-01635-x
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All lubricating oils contain additives to establish and/or maintain a tribofilm - it’s the boundary lubrication layer at the metal interface. It’s 100% not unique to any specific engineered machine lubricant; it’s a function of all of them. Engine oil, transmission oil, power steering oil, gear oil, etc. Call them oil, call them fluid, it does not erase what the base constituent is (mineral or synthetic oil). Oil is a fluid. This semantic difference is about marketing, not anything important.

Mineral oils will rely strongly on their additive packages to establish said tribofilm. The base oil is highly non-polar, and is actually repulsed by the steel surfaces. Think how oil and vinegar do NOT mix or stay mixed. Same thing. Some synthetics are polar and will cling - it is a fantastic thing for cleaning and lubrication. Certain highly critical machinery applications will exclusively specify them - for example, ester oil in helicopter gear boxes is one example.

PSF is just ATF w/o friction modifiers, since they aren’t needed. But since they are a very tiny component of the ATF, and do no harm whatsoever, it’s typical to just use ATF in PS systems. Economies of scale make the, actually HIGHER tech ATF, much cheaper. That’s all there really is to it. Both are essentially a 15 weight oil that function as a combined lubricant/hydraulic fluid. The detergent additives, anti-wear additives, anti-corrosion additives, anti-foam additives, etc., etc. are pretty much identical.

For serious tribology, the industry reference is the Journal of Machinery Lubrication (now just “Machinery Lubrication”). They have been around decades and are the general industry clearing house for tech, education, best practices, and trends. Here’s a basic primer on additives so perhaps some of the mystery goes away.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/R ... -additives

[MoVolvos]

ATF is a high in detergent and is not call an oil but rather a fluid. People put them in motors before doing an oil change to clear more stuff out. Most Swepco products produce Tribofilm. Been around for a long time and it works. Along with the synergy of other additives it overcomes the minor frictional development of the Tribofilm. If you have problems with blowby in the car use Swepco motor oil. If the noise continues in the poweringsteering pump give the 714 20W a try. It's that good. Many high end engine builders use Swepco as break in oil due to the protections from the Tribfilm.
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https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 22-01635-x
.

All lubricating oils contain additives to establish and/or maintain a tribofilm - it’s the boundary lubrication layer at the metal interface. It’s 100% not unique to any specific engineered machine lubricant; it’s a function of all of them. Engine oil, transmission oil, power steering oil, gear oil, etc. Call them oil, call them fluid, it does not erase what the base constituent is (mineral or synthetic oil). Oil is a fluid. This semantic difference is about marketing, not anything important.

Mineral oils will rely strongly on their additive packages to establish said tribofilm. The base oil is highly non-polar, and is actually repulsed by the steel surfaces. Think how oil and vinegar do NOT mix or stay mixed. Same thing. Some synthetics are polar and will cling - it is a fantastic thing for cleaning and lubrication. Certain highly critical machinery applications will exclusively specify them - for example, ester oil in helicopter gear boxes is one example.

PSF is just ATF w/o friction modifiers, since they aren’t needed. But since they are a very tiny component of the ATF, and do no harm whatsoever, it’s typical to just use ATF in PS systems. Economies of scale make the, actually HIGHER tech ATF, much cheaper. That’s all there really is to it. Both are essentially a 15 weight oil that function as a combined lubricant/hydraulic fluid. The detergent additives, anti-wear additives, anti-corrosion additives, anti-foam additives, etc., etc. are pretty much identical.

For serious tribology, the industry reference is the Journal of Machinery Lubrication (now just “Machinery Lubrication”). They have been around decades and are the general industry clearing house for tech, education, best practices, and trends. Here’s a basic primer on additives so perhaps some of the mystery goes away.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/R ... -additives

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Good general info about oils, additive packages, Metal wetting and film but not an article about Tribofilm. Tribofilm is specific to ZNNP which most modern oils and fluids lack or have little of. ZNNP in combination with other synergistic additive packages makes a for a bullet proof oil. ZNNP has been around 80 years and I think Swepco maybe 100 years.

The Journal article below is about friction created by the Tribofilm. It's shear strength is higher than the steel so it's not just a film from metal wetting per your article. That is the reason for the friction created as it's like Iron Man's Nano Suit which is a thin super strength layer compared to his suits from the first movies. Not a great analogy but suitable, no pun. An additional layer of harder than steel surface will protect the engine besides increasing the gaps from wear.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 22-01635-x

Anti-wear additives play essential roles in improving and expanding the lifespans of engine components. A typical anti-wear additive, zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate (ZDDP), is a multifunctional additive essential for lubricants owing to its anti-oxidation, anti-seizure, and anti-wear properties, has been utilized for approximately 80 years [4,5,6]. ZDDP forms a tribofilm during rubbing to protect the surface by preventing direct metal/metal contact [7]. ZDDP generally forms a rough and patchy film, a so-called pad-like structure, with a thickness of approximately 50–150 nm [4,5,6]. It was hypothesized that ZDDP tribofilms consist of a bottom layer of iron/zinc sulfide, middle layer of iron/zinc phosphates and polyphosphate, and top layer of mixed oxide and zinc sulfide [4, 7]. The anti-wear action of phosphates/polyphosphate is to wear self-sacrificingly instead of substrates and protect adhesive wear [8].

In Conclusion
We confirmed the relationship between the adhesion and nano-friction force and found a correlation. In addition, the shear strength of the ZDDP tribofilm calculated using the Hertz model was substantially higher than that of steel. These results suggest that the high adhesion force of ZDDP tribofilm contributes to the high friction.

My Conclusion
Friction is relative depending on the differing surfaces and environment. In a loose or worn motor the layer will pad and layer all the worn surfaces so will bring back engine performance. Swepco having a synergistic additive package creates that strong Tribofilm yet overcoming the friction created so it's like that Iron Man Nano suit all over the worn surfaces.
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[MoVolvos]

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Year ago had a 95 Plymouth Grand Voyager. Long story short the 3.0 6 Cylinder Mitsubishi Motor had a dead cylinder so couldn't get it to pass inspection. In CA the seller is responsible but not pay for the SMOG to pass. He reimburse me $1K and I installed a reMan. Fast forward at 50K a head gasket leak. Upon removing the head the mechanic was shock to see the hashmarks so the motor looked new. Ran Swepco 306 15W40 and Swepco 714 20W transfluid after the purchase and the van ran flawless till the head gasket. It was not from an overheat so was perhaps a cheap gasket used during reMan,
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[jmartin919]

@MOVolvos "Swepco 306 15W40 and Swepco 714 20W transfluid" What combo would you recommend for a turbo P80 with 100K and a NA P80 with 180K?

[Oro]

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Good general info about oils, additive packages, Metal wetting and film but not an article about Tribofilm. Tribofilm is specific to ZNNP which most modern oils and fluids lack or have little of. ZNNP in combination with other synergistic additive packages makes a for a bullet proof oil. ZNNP has been around 80 years and I think Swepco maybe 100 years.
….
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“Tribofilm” is not at all unique to any specific zinc compound, formulation, or manufacturer. A definition is below. Most all oils use a combination of zinc and molybdenum (ZDDP or zinc in other forms) to establish tribofilms. is how SWEPCO may chose to help establish it in their formulation. There are many ways, all with pros and cons. The massive negative of ZDDP is that it poisons catalytic converters, and it’s use is massively curtailed vs the past. SWEPCO and others can make boutique racing and offroad oil with higher amounts than can be sold retail for modern passenger cars. The high ZDDP formulations are generally targeted at older flat tappet engines and niche, non-catalytic equipped vehicles.

There is nothing wholly unique about ZDDP (I believe that’s what you mean, not ZNNP) as an additive to any one blender. I think too much has been read into some marketing material somewhere.

Tribofilm (not a SWEPCO invention):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribofilm

[MoVolvos]

@MOVolvos "Swepco 306 15W40 and Swepco 714 20W transfluid" What combo would you recommend for a turbo P80 with 100K and a NA P80 with 180K?

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The local Rep for us retired and I didn't get the name of the current. My neighbor and I use to buy direct and pickup from his warehouse in Morrisville as we didn't need 3 cases of 24 qt at once shipped from Texas in order to get free shipping.

We used the 306 15W40 and 308 5W40 and didn't have issues in the winter. In case you prefer something in the 5W used the 308 5W40. The 98 S70 T5 with 230K miles I had in 2012 while in CA, experienced a small puff of smoke one super cold winter morning so I changed it to the 308 5W40. The Tribofilm produced will help protect against cold starts. Not a problem if you drive the car everyday and the engine is not worn.

The $500 98 S70 T5 with 230K miles had a worn motor and turbo so it was doing much better with the Swepco. I only drove it twice a day perhaps a couple of times a week and six miles each way so the car never fully warm up during winter.

As for the transmission fluid the 714 20W will make the transmission exceptionally smooth. In combo the car will feel likes it's not on and will glide down the road. The 98 S70 T5 has silvery thick coffee transmission fluid when I purchased it and did the first flush with the 714 20W. I replace it the following year though I kept the fluid flushed as top off motor oil and before an oil change. It was also clean enough that I used it to exchange PWST fluids.

The API ratings are good for most cars up to 2005 or 2006 but I'm using it newer cars like the 2020 Tiguan at 1 qt per oil change to silence the Miller Cycle quacker of an engine.

We test drove a new one in 2018 and found the exact problem of wind noise and engine noise so didn't buy one. The salesman allowed my Son and to take it over to my parents home, where you dropped off the 00 S70 sub frame brace, to see if they were comfortable in it. Both those issues were a deal breaker. The 2020 saw no wind noise from the mirrors and there was improvement in the engine but the Swepco was what did the trick.

https://www.vwvortex.com/threads/2018-t ... s.9081050/
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