03 V70 cam seal leak... for the third time??

gks · Post by **gks** » 21 Feb 2023, 08:35

Howdy,

Have read some great info on these forums since getting my V70 2.4 NA (2003 @221k mi) two years ago (@191k) and I'm stepping into the ring with a question for the first time.

2 WEEKS AGO: I had my timing belt and water pump replaced. This was the wagon's first time in at an indy "Volvo specialist" out of town who gave me a much better quote for it ($650) than the Volvo specialist in the city ($1400) where I have had work done in the past. Money is tight and I jumped at the chance to try out a cheaper shop. I'm a bicycle mechanic, so I have some interest in how the car works, but no driveway or space to work on it, so I can't really dip into DIY.

The mechanic doing the TB and WP replacement found oil on the TB, "all over" that side of the engine, and diagnosed leaking cam seals. I agreed to have the cam seals replaced and the top of the engine resealed (+$500). When I brought it in I included a written list of engine service history, which included a repair done 4 years ago (previous owner @167k), recorded as "cam seals, crank seal, cam plug, CVVT intake unit replaced." This mechanic opined that he didn't trust the records because the engine had a lot of sludge in it, and suggested that the cam seal replacement actually hadn't been done (properly?). The PCV system is recorded as having been serviced about 6 months prior (@161k), and the mechanic said that he doesn't trust that either and recommends doing it now... but I do (somewhat) trust the records, there is good suction when the oil cap is removed (glove test), and 60k and <5 years seems like an early interval for the service, given consistent oil changes etc. I know that it may need doing again sometime, and could cause leaking cam seals, but I'm not convinced it's the issue.

YESTERDAY: the Volvo dealership replaced the airbag under recall. They haven't seen the car in two decades, and I asked them specifically about a persistent (but not continuous) CEL with code p0011 (camshaft timing over-advance). It appears to have come on around 2017 (160k), about the time of the PCV job. The camshaft solenoid was replaced, and then the cam seals were replaced for the first time—to no avail. It runs differently when the CEL is on, but it doesn't bother me much. I hoped that the T belt replacement might address it, but the last mechanic said it was an unrelated issue. I now suspect that all these things are related, but unsure how.

The kicker is that the dealership said I have an oil leak indicating bad cam seals and that I need to have them replaced along with the T belt, i.e. the exact service done 2 weeks ago. One thought is that they might have noticed symptoms of the leak that was just serviced, especially if the last mechanic didn't thoroughly clean up the leakage. But the dealership stated that the (brand new) timing belt is "covered in oil." This suggests that the last service did not solve the issue, and that the belt's days are numbered.

The car has never needed the oil topped up between 5000-mile oil changes, which rules out a severe leak (dipstick level now is exactly where it was 2 weeks ago). There is a slow PS fluid leak, so there are always a few drips on the pavement and I tend to ignore them.

So, my Qs:
1. Maybe we've been barking up the wrong tree and the leak is coming from somewhere else... Is there an alternate diagnosis for apparent leaking cam seals? Damaged valve/camshaft cover??
2. What should my approach be with the mechanic who did the job two weeks ago? It will be devastating if the $1200 service was all a waste, but I'm also hopeful that (if there was a problem with the service), I have caught it promptly with the help of the dealership and can get him to make it right.

Thankful in advance for any advice (or related threads I might want to read)!

Post by **jonesg** » 21 Feb 2023, 09:33

Maybe the mechanic was right not to trust the PCV repair you showed him.
IF something is pushing the oil out.
its also possible the oil is getting past the crank seal, or oil pump seal.
Also oil can leak from the cam CVVT hub inner seal.
OR....the oil might just be residue from the past.
Either way, take it back and let them take a quick look.
I would follow the mechanics advise either way.

Post by **cn90** » 21 Feb 2023, 10:02

Maybe the mechanic forgot to clean the oil stain.
You should clean the oil residue with engine cleaner.
No need to use water to clean.
If you use water, I recommend a small stream using garden sprayer, but this is after using engine cleaner.

Brand matters, use only Volvo or Corteco cam seal.
Also, the Cam seal O.D. is not big enough for a tight friction fit. I usually apply a bit of black RTV on the outer edge of seal during installation and let it sit overnight before starting engine.
Also, a bad VVT hubs can keep causing oil leak

All info is in that long DIY I posted summer 2022, in this forum...

gks · Post by **gks** » 21 Feb 2023, 10:22

Thanks jonesg for your thoughts

I will definitely take it back ASAP to the last mechanic, and want to know what to ask and be informed about. I really can't afford to spend another grand or so unless it is really worth it (hence living with the PS fluid leak and CEL).

The last mechanic (re: p0011) said that the CVVT hub looked good and didn't show leaking. Hence I'm especially curious about the crank seal and oil pump seal.

Thanks cn90! I found your thread at viewtopic.php?t=100439
I think I did skim the thread earlier along the way, but since I am not doing the job myself and wasn't thinking of the other seals (suggested by jonesg), I might have missed some relevant details.

gks · Post by **gks** » 01 Mar 2023, 12:37

I continue to see fluid on the ground when parked, but the oil level at the dipstick seems stable—no perceptible decline.

Talked to the mechanic who did the T belt + water pump + cam seals: without looking at the car again he says he's sure the engine is having crankcase pressure problems and needs the PCV cleanout he suggested, and likely the oil pan dropped for cleaning as well. He said that he cleaned up the leaked oil when he replaced the seals—so, unlikely that the dealership was wrong about there being a continued leak.

As I mentioned, the engine passes the glove test, though the oil cap does show some grime. Is it normal to need this service (PCV hoses and oil pan cleaning) again after 60k miles and never going over 5k between oil changes, usually using synthetic oil? It seems early, but of course I can't vouch for service done before I had the car, at shops I haven't been to. If there's anything to be said for getting a second opinion on any of this, I could also take the car back to the shop where the PCV service and cam seals were done back in 2017/18 (the previous owner spoke highly of them) but it's less convenient for me to get to.

New Qs:
Even if the leak gets resolved, is the new T belt toast from getting contaminated with oil right after installation?
if the PCV is indeed the problem, and the pressure is causing a slight leak at the cam seals, can I expect the seals to be OK after PCV service? I'm hoping I won't have to shell out for cam seal replacement again too!

Post by **cn90** » 01 Mar 2023, 13:22

At > 200K miles, the VVT hub lives past its lifespan.
A loose VVT hub can cause cam seal leak, even with new seals.

The PCV system should be cleaned every 100K-150K, depending on driving habits (short trips vs long highway trips).

gks · Post by **gks** » 02 Mar 2023, 06:48

Thanks for indulging my inferential diagnostics and hypothesizing... One day I'll have space to work on the car and will start getting my hands greasy figuring these things out myself!

CVVT hub was apparently replaced at 167k, same time the cam seals were first done. Hoping it's still OK:)

I commute by bike and only use the car for 1hr+ trips and occasional errands, so the vast majority of the 30k miles I have put on are highway driving—I'm averaging just under 29 mpg overall if that gives you an idea.

All this service (PCV and oil pan cleanout, first appearance of CEL p0011, camshaft solenoid, cam seals, CVVT hub replacement) happened around 161-167k, then I bought it at 191k.

I guess it's normal for the car to need PCV cleanout for a second time at 221k, even though the last one was relatively recent, it was probably late, and I imagine there could have been plenty of other buildup left over that has now found its way into more problematic choke points.

Post by **vtl** » 02 Mar 2023, 20:46

With long trips and quality oil replaced in sane intervals your PCV will be mostly clean.

Post by **cn90** » 03 Mar 2023, 08:25

The cam seals in 2.5T are very tricky to deal with.
Brand-name matters.
Technique of installation matters.

Post by **scot850** » 03 Mar 2023, 09:50

Simple question, have you checked the pipe from the oil catch can to the top of the cylinder head for leaks? I've had issues with that pipe, especially depending on the brands used. They can go hard and leak below the spark plug cover.

Did you replace the oil filler cap seal recently? Use a good one as a lot of the aftermarket ones are too thin and hard so don't seal.

Neil.